What would happen if all liberty lovers in NH just decided to stop paying property tax?
Just editing first message to show what's happening on this. KD
Family to defy school property tax
From NHfree.com
Keene, N.H.; June 15 2005
38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth
from government schools. In fact, she says she isn't getting anything
from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon. "She's never gone to public
school and never will. I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for
them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June
30 with a check for only a fraction of what the city says she owes.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...I'm keeping it.
It's my money."
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will stand outside city
hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she
has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire others to do
the same, but that she will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell
Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA
regulations at Manchester airport. And it was Dillon who received the
infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher. In May, Fisher
gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board
and also went to jail for it.
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of
civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, but "it's the right
thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against school property tax, followed by
protest.
Why: "It's my money!"
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school
portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle),
Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon, supporters from NHfree.com, whoever wants to join us.
Contacts: Kat Dillon or Russell Kanning (603) 357-2049, backup: Dave
Ridley (603) 721-1490. Updates will appear at NHfree.com
There'd probably be a lot of foreclosures! Or would it be "takings" by the town to pay back taxes?
For me, I'd say it's too risky. I'll work instead to reduce taxes by reducing the size and therefore the cost of our local gov't.
What if there were 1000 residences? Would they throw everyone into the street? Jail them?
Apparently it takes them many years to put a lein on your house, and many more to foreclose. I've been thinking about doing this very publically. Any moves against me would only make it more public and encourage more people to join in.
We are seriously thinking about this.
These taxes are never going away. ?Perhaps a better, and, more understandable (acceptable) to the average citizen, is a plan for an annual reduction of property taxes.
I don't how much. ?Maybe 2%-5%.
It will be harder for them to come up with arguments against small reductions, than doing away with their budgets, altogether, especially, if we come up with ideas on how to do it, like, selling the school in Keene and Mike's Firehouse idea in Merrimac.
Protestors can hold back whatever the percentage that is decided apon, symbolically and very publically. ?They aren't going to forclose on your home for 5%.
Lloyd
Oh, I like that. I was thinking about figuring out what percentage is going to the schools, and not pay that percentage. This would work, too.
To my knowledge all citizens? protests of marching, speaking out, and contacting public Officials and outright disobeying government ?legislation? (statutes/laws) have all failed and accomplished nothing toward correcting government. Citizens protest are effective only if they favor what government Officials want to do. Be careful what you ask for. Begging government Officials for the curtailment of your neighbor?s Rights will most likely be granted.
Check out the Bonus Soldiers and Posse Comitatus. Posse Comitatus was a mass tax protest primarily in California and Arizona where many citizens lost their homes, businesses, money, were incarcerated, and some even lost their life (WWII hero Gordon Kahl for one. Yorei, Gordon?s son, is still incarcerated).
Recently, a few years ago, in Tennessee citizens created such a ruckus in the street that it stopped a legislative committee from working on a tax hike. It was reported that a person or two of the committee was rushed off to a hospital. However, after things steeled down in a week or two the tax hike was enacted into law.
It seems citizens have a difficult time learning their Right of Grievance carries no force? All government Officials are required to do about citizen?s grievances is listen to them. If citizens grievances did have force then America is a mob ruled democracy and not a constitutional Republic.
The only legitimate peaceful citizen protest with force behind it is using the ballot box to fire public Officials that dishonor their Oath of Office.
Allan
So does anyone have a Nh property tax bill handy....how much goes to the evil public schools?
What about a consciensious objector statis. I object to funding the government schools, so I'm going to not pay that portion of them. ? Where would that get you?
From what James Maynard was telling me at one time, if government schools were shut down, the statewide property tax would be abolished, and a good percentage of the local property taxes would be abolished too.
Like, property taxes would be an average of .04% of valuation instead of what they currently are.
Tracy
Quote from: russellkanning on April 25, 2005, 03:02 PM NHFT
So does anyone have a Nh property tax bill handy....how much goes to the evil public schools?
2004 Tax Rates
http://www.nh.gov/revenue/property_tax/2004/2004taxrates.rtf
Keene:
Local Tax 9.93
Local Education Tax 13.69
State Education Tax 2.76
County Tax 1.96
Quote from: AllanHampton on April 25, 2005, 09:22 AM NHFT
To my knowledge all citizens? protests of marching, speaking out, and contacting public Officials and outright disobeying government ?legislation? (statutes/laws) have all failed and accomplished nothing toward correcting government.
Actually, protests against the War in Vietnam, mostly, by students created a general dislike for the war among the population and brought about an end to our involvement.
Quote
Recently, a few years ago, in Tennessee citizens created such a ruckus in the street that it stopped a legislative committee from working on a tax hike. It was reported that a person or two of the committee was rushed off to a hospital. However, after things steeled down in a week or two the tax hike was enacted into law.
I seem to remember that the tax hike was shelved, but, I might be remembering a simular situation where a protest worked. ?I know there was one in the last few years.
Quote
It seems citizens have a difficult time learning their Right of Grievance carries no force? All government Officials are required to do about citizen?s grievances is listen to them. If citizens grievances did have force then America is a mob ruled democracy and not a constitutional Republic.
It is neither, It is a 'Snowball' of Constitution ignoring, government power, rolling down a steep hill.
Quote
The only legitimate peaceful citizen protest with force behind it is using the ballot box to fire public Officials that dishonor their Oath of Office.
Allan
Once again, citizens, in their ignorance,
Don't Know that public officials are dishonoring their oaths! ?They think the public officials are using their just powers!
Protests may not move government to change, but, they might bring government abuses to the attention of voters and enlighten them.
I was trying to make a point about force, government is force and citizens have force too. Addressing government Officials about their criminal activity without the threat of using the force of the ballot box is mere begging or perhaps bribery.
Begging will accomplish what government Officials are already of a mind to do. But, begging will not force them out of office. Seems to me the greatest fear of public Officials is being voted out of office. At any rate firing those that dishonor their Oath of Office is the sure way to change the direction of government from unconstitutionality toward constitutionality.
You may believe my elected Representative are well aware that all I ask them to do is make an honest attempt to honor their Oath of Office, my support and influence depends solely on that one principle.
The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.
-Thomas Jefferson
Allan
I don't have a loan.
For suggestions on how to evade the property tax I would touch base with the U.S. Constitution Rangers in Lebanon. One of their guys told me he does it and told me how, but I don't remember his name or the details. Call ed brown at the Ranger office in Lebanon and I think he can get you started:
603 298 0552
I would be more interested in revolting against instead of "evading"....but it is all good compared to paying the STATE :D
Me to, but I advocate revolting at the ballot box rather than with arms.
Allan
So, then what? If 1000 homes decided to stop paying, would they come evict everyone?
Don't know but time is on government's side. So I think sooner or later such protesters would be picked of one or a few at a time.
Allan
Of course, if we actually had 1000 activists, we might be able to just abolish it altogether.
Yah, 1000 activist, living in a town of 1000 population, willing to do without any services.
Yes. I'm ready for Galt's Gulch.
I'm with the president. All "services" can be performed at a lower price and higher quality by the market.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 25, 2005, 05:11 PM NHFT
Quote from: AllanHampton on April 25, 2005, 09:22 AM NHFT
To my knowledge all citizens? protests of marching, speaking out, and contacting public Officials and outright disobeying government ?legislation? (statutes/laws) have all failed and accomplished nothing toward correcting government.
Actually, protests against the War in Vietnam, mostly, by students created a general dislike for the war among the population and brought about an end to our involvement.
Quote
Recently, a few years ago, in Tennessee citizens created such a ruckus in the street that it stopped a legislative committee from working on a tax hike. It was reported that a person or two of the committee was rushed off to a hospital. However, after things steeled down in a week or two the tax hike was enacted into law.
I seem to remember that the tax hike was shelved, but, I might be remembering a simular situation where a protest worked.? I know there was one in the last few years.
Quote
The only legitimate peaceful citizen protest with force behind it is using the ballot box to fire public Officials that dishonor their Oath of Office.
Allan
The way I remember it, in Tennessee, the legislature was on the brink of enacting an income tax.? People protested in the streets, creating quite a ruckus, and the legislature backed down.? Tennessee still does not have an income tax, so it certainly appears to have been effective.? I remember the TV pictures: traffic at a standstill, people everywhere with angry signs, horns honking... a real protest.
And Lloyd's right -- protests against the Vietnam War certainly had an effect.? The ballot box is important, but it isn't a citizen's only protection against tyranny... not by a long shot.
It's just like the Jefferson quote on the main page:
"When the government fears the people, that is Liberty."
I didn't mean to imply that all of the 'alleged services' could not be supplied by the market, but, the whole town would have to arrange and pay for some services they need, in common.
"wait a minute!, I never go on that street, I don't want to pay to have it plowed"
"Wait a minute!, the whole town uses my street, why do I have to pay to plow it?"
Even if you sell the streets, you will have to get together on how and who pays for the use, repair and plowing of them.
This just goes for the 50% plus 1 who have voted for an end to local government. ?The losers can just lay back and ride for free as the rest have no authority to make them pay for the plowing or repairs.
I am a believer in the market, but, applying it in an area already established under conventional, (forced) tax system, requires a lot of cooperation.
In the case where it would be possible to take over a town, perhaps, a good start would be to just dump the schools and social services., stuff we don't need to do in common. ? Job out services we have in common, but, maintain some sort of enforcement to pay for them.
Hey, I believe in volunteerism, and, that taxation is theft!
"Thats OK, just don't plow in front of my house!"
?The free market will sovle all the problems?
Almost all the economic problems but not all the problems oiling unconstitutionality, legislation is that oil. In a Republic citizens do not have the power to legislate, they elect Representative to legislate. Legislators are obligated by Oath to enact legislation only within the bounds of the Constitution. Anything repugnant to the Constitution is null and void and no law at all ?Supreme Court decision in Marbury v Madison ?if you care for SC decisions.
?traffic at a standstill, people everywhere with angry signs, horns honking... a real protest.?
Yes, a real protest with the same result as all other protests, a few weeks after things settled down didn?t the TN Legislature enact a tax increase?
?"When the government fears the people, that is Liberty."
Yes indeed, but there is no need for government Officials to fear protest for protest in themselves do not force government Officials enact or not enact legislation. If protest did force Officials to or not to enact legislation then America would not be a Republic, it would be a mob ruled democracy.
The only real peaceful power citizens have to force government Officials out of office is the ballot box and being fired is those Officials greatest fear.
Rest assured as long as citizens reelect those that do not honor the Oath of Office the parade of corruption will continue, particularly those dishonorable critters in the House of Congress every two years.
Allan
check out axthetax or other tennessee tax revolt pages :)
This can go around in circles for ever.
As I see it, protests alert the public to a problem and let the politicians know the people are upset. If the protests are large enough, the politicians realize their jobs are in jeopardy, hence they back down. It is the "threat of the ballot box" by those protesting, that IMO makes the protest successful.
Three people protesting will have no effect beyond alerting some that a problem exists. 30 thousand people protesting can have an effect. 300 thousand protesting, and the chances of success are huge.
The protests in Ukraine, et al, were effective because of their size. Massive.
I agree and merely try to point out government Officials are not obligated by citizen?s protests other than to listen to them. Protest certainly will get a bigger ear if there is a known threat of using the force of the ballot box against them. To be most effective emphasis must be transferred from the object, political issue, of the protest to the ballot box.
Allan
What about the known threat of loss of revenue? >:D
Quote from: russellkanning on April 29, 2005, 07:53 AM NHFT
What about the known threat of loss of revenue? >:D
What do you mean by this, Russell?
Ian started this thread with the idea of not paying our property taxes.....if we don't pay all or part of the tax, they will feel it, whether they pay attention to us or not.
I like not paying....it doesn't matter who we elect...they will feel it >:D
Quote from: russellkanning on April 29, 2005, 08:39 AM NHFT
Ian started this thread with the idea of not paying our property taxes.....if we don't pay all or part of the tax, they will feel it, whether they pay attention to us or not.
I like not paying....it doesn't matter who we elect...they will feel it >:D
They will still get their tax money. They will merely borrow the money until they can take your house for taxes.
?What about the known threat of loss of revenue??
That is not much, if any, threat to government for government does not earn money it steals it. Yes, government is delegated the power to borrow money and the collateral used in citizen?s labor. The national debt has citizen?s great great great great children in hock now and the money is borrowed from America?s enemy. It is reported that American?s federal income taxes all goes to pay the interest, not a cent on the principal, on borrowed money.
Economic slavery, rampant isn?t it?
Allan
Well it was a good idea.
I was just thinking maybe we should change things...but it probably wouldn't work.
Well, I agree with citizen?s Right to protest, the Right of grievance and assembly, is listed in the Constitution. While exercising the Right to protest I hope to avoid some one becoming a martyr, not just yet anyway. Let me say it another way, I wish not to push, or help put, anyone?s head in the hangman?s noose, or the guillotine.
Maybe is not so well know to Free Staters but today in America a few American?s are already incarcerated, or fined, for merely saying their thoughts out loud.
Allan
Yes, I try and list examples of such things here:
http://www.soulawakenings.com/underground/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=101+Reasons+to+Fear+your+Government
I didn't realize how many people the government has abused....maybe I should rethink this whole revolution thing...we might need to take our time.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on April 25, 2005, 06:40 AM NHFT
These taxes are never going away. ?Perhaps a better, and, more understandable (acceptable) to the average citizen, is a plan for an annual reduction of property taxes.
I don't how much. ?Maybe 2%-5%.
It will be harder for them to come up with arguments against small reductions, than doing away with their budgets, altogether, especially, if we come up with ideas on how to do it, like, selling the school in Keene and Mike's Firehouse idea in Merrimac.
Protestors can hold back whatever the percentage that is decided apon, symbolically and very publically. ?They aren't going to forclose on your home for 5%.
Lloyd
This could be combined with a notice to the county/city...
We hereby declare that the county should reduce taxes by 5%. If that is not enacted then the following people (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) will reduce the amount of taxes they send in by 5%.
That would cover the political way and then the protest way. And do this for 4-5 years and taxes will be down to where they should be ( ok go kill me for saying no taxes at all).
Quote from: AllanHampton on April 29, 2005, 10:03 AM NHFT
?What about the known threat of loss of revenue??
That is not much, if any, threat to government for government does not earn money it steals it. Yes, government is delegated the power to borrow money and the collateral used in citizen?s labor. The national debt has citizen?s great great great great children in hock now and the money is borrowed from America?s enemy. It is reported that American?s federal income taxes all goes to pay the interest, not a cent on the principal, on borrowed money.
Economic slavery, rampant isn?t it?
Allan
Repudiate the debt! People loaning money to the government, are well aware they're earning their interest payments off stolen capital!
Tracy
Everybody reduce the amount of property taxes they send in every year. (No adjusting for inflation, population, or valuation, or anything!)
Yeah, if everybody reduces their taxes by 5% each year, then the next year it will be down 9.75 from original and the next, it'll be 14.25 down from original and the next year it'll be 19.5% down from original and the next year 22.6% down from original and the next 25.5% down from original and the next 30.2% down etc. it's going to take an awfull long time to completely abolish them that way. It'll take 14 years to cut them in HALF! and 27 cut cut them to a quarter!
Taxes NEED to be reduced much faster then this when we develope some clout. Long term plans always get hung or insidiously perverted when the next people take over. taxes will be down by 10 percent after 2 years, and then after the propaganda machine get's going, the backlash will push them up over the top again.
Or maybe I'm incesently pessamistic.
I won't be satisfied untill property taxes and government schools are both completely abolished.
Tracy
Well maybe some one could try paying their property taxes with pennies or chickens .
Quote from: Pat K on April 29, 2005, 10:18 PM NHFT
Well maybe some one could try paying their property taxes with pennies or chickens .
That's been done.
There was a restaurant in Portsmouth that was behind on its property taxes. On the last day, before they could take it, he came into the city tax collectors office with wheel-barrow after wheel-barrow full of pennies, (it was over $18,000 if I remeber right). He and all his friends had taken several weeks to collect enough. He brought his lawyer with him, and when the Tax Collector tried to refuse the pennies, his lawyer told him they couldn't, it was "legal tender".
Oh very cool well maybe everyone should do that.
Won't that be hard work for the government employees to count all that money?
Quote from: russellkanning on April 30, 2005, 06:38 AM NHFT
Won't that be hard work for the government employees to count all that money?
Good. Keep them out of our hair for awhile.
Tracy
Quote from: russellkanning on April 30, 2005, 06:38 AM NHFT
Won't that be hard work for the government employees to count all that money?
They will justify hiring more people.. penny counters.
Damn your right they probably would use it as anexcuse to hire more people!!
<<They will still get their tax money. They will merely borrow the money until they can take your house for taxes.>>
Unless there is something keeping them from taking the house. We need to be thinking about that in case this really happens...what are the things that could keep a state or city bureaucracy from taking a tax protestors house without violating the Zero Aggression Principle?
People could use guns to defend their property.
Tracy
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 30, 2005, 07:16 PM NHFT
<<They will still get their tax money. They will merely borrow the money until they can take your house for taxes.>>
Unless there is something keeping them from taking the house. We need to be thinking about that in case this really happens...what are the things that could keep a state or city bureaucracy from taking a tax protestors house without violating the Zero Aggression Principle?
Perhaps we understand the ZAP differently, but in my mind the principle of "best defense being a good offense" is acceptable, and not a violation of ZAP.
I'm not advocating a first strike against tax collectors, just clarifying that the first use of force can be defensive and not a violation of ZAP. Aggression means the apparent intent and apparent means and ability to do harm. With those elements present, whatever force is needed is justified.
Kevin
OK i think we are about to learn from Mike Fisher the proper way to stop any governmnet from enforcing unjust laws.
after watching gandhi I bet we could do all kinds of things in the Gandhi way which would stand between the State and property owners. maybe walking into the tax office and lying down on the floor refusing to leave? what other kinds of gandhi style passive resistance would be appropriate against a government coming for someone's property?
one thing in the gandhi movie that seemed to work was when the gandhi folks announced they would take over a british salt factory. They just kept walking toward the factory and getting knocked down as they would come close to it, by soldiers.
In our case people would more likely just be cuffed and let away, but if they attacked someone we would win end quicker.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 30, 2005, 07:16 PM NHFT
<<They will still get their tax money. They will merely borrow the money until they can take your house for taxes.>>
Unless there is something keeping them from taking the house. We need to be thinking about that in case this really happens...what are the things that could keep a state or city bureaucracy from taking a tax protestors house without violating the Zero Aggression Principle?
why not simply take a home equity loan on the apprecaiting value to pay your property tax and never have to take a dollar out of your pocket?
Because the only reason it's apreciating is because of Inflation -- and because even if it isn't, that apreciation is yours -- not the states -- because it's your own property.
Tracy
Quote from: Hankster on May 07, 2005, 08:01 PM NHFT
why not simply take a home equity loan on the apprecaiting value to pay your property tax and never have to take a dollar out of your pocket?
and who would make the payments on this loan? :o
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 08, 2005, 12:52 AM NHFT
Because the only reason it's apreciating is because of Inflation -- and because even if it isn't, that apreciation is yours -- not the states -- because it's your own property.
what is inflation running at these days? 1-2%
what are houses appreciating at these days in NH? 2-4%
Quote from: Dreepa on May 08, 2005, 01:27 AM NHFT
Quote from: Hankster on May 07, 2005, 08:01 PM NHFT
why not simply take a home equity loan on the apprecaiting value to pay your property tax and never have to take a dollar out of your pocket?
and who would make the payments on this loan? :o
With a reverse mortgage, you remain the owner of your home just like when you had a forward mortgage.
When the loan is over, you or your heirs must repay all of your cash advances plus interest.
You can use the money you get from a reverse mortgage to pay the various fees that are charged on the loan. This is called "financing" the loan costs. The costs are added to your loan balance, and you pay them back plus interest when the loan is over.
Quote from: Hankster on May 08, 2005, 05:02 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 08, 2005, 12:52 AM NHFT
Because the only reason it's apreciating is because of Inflation -- and because even if it isn't, that apreciation is yours -- not the states -- because it's your own property.
what is inflation running at these days? 1-2%
Sure, it's only 1-2%; and I've got a bridge to sell ;)
The government has been understating inflation for decades. It is an art for bureaucrats these days. Imagine if anti-social insecurity had to use real inflation figures for COLAs - it would likely already be paying out more than it is taking in.
Reports I have seen seem to indicate that inflation is more around 5-6%.
Quote from: freedominnh on May 08, 2005, 06:35 AM NHFT
Reverse mortgages are currently only available to seniors with paid off homes.? Three years ago we looked into the program available throught New Hampshire Housing Finance Authority.? ?The reverse mortgage note interest equated to over 12%.? ?Family members can do a better job with their parents' financial situations than a loan like this.?If there are not other sons or daughters to help----this does allow seniors freedom and dignity in their golden years.? Many seniors would not take help. ?Caveat emptor.
Equity lines of credit have stupid teaser rates for stupid people.? The home equity line of credit(Heloc) is adjustable rate paid over 15 years.? ?Only people with very good good credit are able to get them.
The best long term strategy is to make one extra principal payment per year on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage (as long as mortgage has no prepayment penalty).? ?A 360 month amortization can be paid off in approximately 264 months (22 years).? ? ?Stay away from interest only balloons and any other form of adjustable rate mortgage.
The only way to true financial freedom is to get out of credit debt as soon as possible.?
In a forward mortgage, you use debt to turn your income into equity. In a reverse mortgage, you use debt to turn your equity into income. You are reversing the deal you used to buy your home. Then, you had income and wanted equity. Now, you have equity and want income. In both cases, you use debt to turn what you have into what you want.
Reverse mortgages are different from regular home mortgages in two important respects:
To qualify for most loans, the lender checks your income to see how much you can afford to pay back each month. With a reverse mortgage, however, you don't have to make monthly repayments. Thus, your income generally has nothing to do with getting a loan or determining the amount of the loan.
With most home loans, you can lose your home if you fail to make your monthly repayments. With a reverse mortgage, however, you can't lose your home by failing to make monthly loan payments because you don't have any to make.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on May 07, 2005, 03:41 PM NHFT
OK i think we are about to learn from Mike Fisher the proper way to stop any governmnet from enforcing unjust laws.
after watching gandhi I bet we could do all kinds of things in the Gandhi way which would stand between the State and property owners.? maybe walking into the tax office and lying down on the floor refusing to leave?? what other kinds of gandhi style passive resistance would be appropriate against a government coming for someone's property?? ?
Instead of passive resistance I prefer very active non-violent non-cooperation. 8)
Quote from: Hankster on May 08, 2005, 05:02 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 08, 2005, 12:52 AM NHFT
Because the only reason it's apreciating is because of Inflation -- and because even if it isn't, that apreciation is yours -- not the states -- because it's your own property.
what is inflation running at these days? 1-2%
what are houses appreciating at these days in NH? 2-4%
AAAANt, try again. The Government dumbed down CPI figures for inflation are around 3%. Many free market organizations put it at 5-7% or even higher. Dana or somebody just posted an article about it -- if not, here, then at the FSP board.
Tracy
QuoteCPI figures for inflation are around 3%
and housing in the Nashua-Manchester area are appreciating at a 10% rate.
Hankster do you want to join the property tax revolt? 8)
We are seriously thinking about not paying all or part of our bill this year.
Quote from: russellkanning on May 08, 2005, 04:01 PM NHFT
Hankster do you want to join the property tax revolt? 8)
We are seriously thinking about not paying all or part of our bill this year.
good luck with that...
I was just showing people that there is no reason to have to pay taxes out of your own pocket.
just use your appreciating home values.
Tighten spending? This is the Property Tax Revolt thread not the responsible school budget thread. 8)
there has got to be something that can be done to stop or deter the government authority in question from actually taking the house, something Gandhi would do (assuming he wanted to fight property taxes). But i'm coming up pretty blank.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on May 08, 2005, 09:05 PM NHFT
there has got to be something that can be done to stop or deter the government authority in question from actually taking the house, something Gandhi would do (assuming he wanted to fight property taxes).? But i'm coming up pretty blank.
It may take years for us to come up with the civil disobedience idea that will enable us to fight property taxes.
Been thinking that this situation might require an indirect approach. Point out how public schools, for instance, force people to pay for the education(?) of other people's kids, depriving poor folk in particular, sometimes driving them out of their homes.
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 09:48 PM NHFT
Been thinking that this situation might require an indirect approach. Point out how public schools, for instance, force people to pay for the education(?) of other people's kids, depriving poor folk in particular, sometimes driving them out of their homes.
As if that hasn't been tried before.
Quote from: Hankster on May 08, 2005, 10:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 09:48 PM NHFT
Been thinking that this situation might require an indirect approach. Point out how public schools, for instance, force people to pay for the education(?) of other people's kids, depriving poor folk in particular, sometimes driving them out of their homes.
As if that hasn't been tried before.
Hey Greenbacks, when are you going to answer my question on the FSP forum? I'm waiting. 8)
The public school problem seems to have 2 main problems:
forced attendance
forced funding
I can't really see a better way to fight the funding side than by total refusal. They are stealing our money and we are just giving in.
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 10:45 PM NHFT
Quote from: Hankster on May 08, 2005, 10:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 09:48 PM NHFT
Been thinking that this situation might require an indirect approach. Point out how public schools, for instance, force people to pay for the education(?) of other people's kids, depriving poor folk in particular, sometimes driving them out of their homes.
As if that hasn't been tried before.
Hey Greenbacks, when are you going to answer my question on the FSP forum? I'm waiting. 8)
which is?
Quote from: Hankster on May 09, 2005, 06:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 10:45 PM NHFT
Quote from: Hankster on May 08, 2005, 10:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 08, 2005, 09:48 PM NHFT
Been thinking that this situation might require an indirect approach. Point out how public schools, for instance, force people to pay for the education(?) of other people's kids, depriving poor folk in particular, sometimes driving them out of their homes.
As if that hasn't been tried before.
Hey Greenbacks, when are you going to answer my question on the FSP forum? I'm waiting. 8)
which is?
I'm 5thconcerto.
Aha, I found that last year, the schools were 58% of Keene's budget.
Considering the "I thought they'd start with something bigger like Property Taxes" cartoon.
I thought, it was probably time to revive and think up ideas in this thread.
I know I won't rest once I get to NH untill Property Taxes are completely abolished.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 19, 2005, 09:30 PM NHFT
Considering the "I thought they'd start with something bigger like Property Taxes" cartoon.
I thought, it was probably time to revive and think up ideas in this thread.
I know I won't rest once I get to NH untill Property Taxes are completely abolished.
Tracy
Well hurry up, Tracy!!!!! Could use a little help here, ya know. Ayuh. 8)
Yeah :( Unfortunately, I really don't have the resources to move just yet. I'm probaly look at 2009 or so. But if there are any groups in NH that want to completely abolish property taxes, I could support them financially, I've also been helping dada with the "Other Forum's talking about the FSP" stuff when I can.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on May 20, 2005, 04:20 AM NHFT
Yeah :( Unfortunately, I really don't have the resources to move just yet.? I'm probaly look at 2009 or so. But if there are any groups in NH that want to completely abolish property taxes, I could support them financially, I've also been helping dada with the "Other Forum's talking about the FSP" stuff when I can.?
Tracy
Just razing you. ;) I know you are doing a lot.
QuoteI know I won't rest once I get to NH untill Property Taxes are completely abolished.
I hope you don't like sleeping then Tracy.
Quote from: AlanM on May 20, 2005, 08:08 AM NHFT
Just razing you. ;) I know you are doing a lot.
There goes Alan burning things to the ground again. Poor Tracy.
Quote from: katdillon on May 20, 2005, 08:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 20, 2005, 08:08 AM NHFT
Just razing you.? ;) I know you are doing a lot.
There goes Alan burning things to the ground again.? Poor Tracy.
I heard it takes a child to raze a village. :o
....or at least "education funding"
Quote from: patmccotter on May 22, 2005, 06:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on May 20, 2005, 08:58 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on May 20, 2005, 08:08 AM NHFT
Just razing you.? ;) I know you are doing a lot.
There goes Alan burning things to the ground again.? Poor Tracy.
I heard it takes a child to raze a village.? :o
Mommy, please may I have some matches? Please!!!!!
interestingly if you burned down all of manchester what would be remaining is the socially created unimproved land values...
Quote from: Hankster on May 22, 2005, 02:11 PM NHFT
interestingly if you burned down all of manchester what would be remaining is the socially created unimproved land values...
Actually, what would be left would be the socially destroyed land value. ;D
Quote from: AlanM on May 22, 2005, 02:18 PM NHFT
Quote from: Hankster on May 22, 2005, 02:11 PM NHFT
interestingly if you burned down all of manchester what would be remaining is the socially created unimproved land values...
Actually, what would be left would be the socially destroyed land value. ;D
ah, you can't destroy land nor the socially created land value...
You know, this really isn't the place for Georgists.
Go back to your Land-Commie cesspool in the commons on the FSP.
Tracy
Quit answering him and he'll go away. :)
Hankster isn't the only Geo-Libertarian here. :P
If you have to have a tax, the land tax is the only way to go. It's the only one that can't be avoided. If you are a renter, there's no reason for the govt to know you exist.
As all of us receive the same Tax provided services or protection (or don't) equally, the only fair tax is a per capita tax. Individual pays X, family of 5 pays 5X.
I agree with Lloyd. Per capita taxes are the fairest, based upon use of services.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on May 24, 2005, 09:08 PM NHFT
As all of us receive the same Tax provided services or protection (or don't) equally, the only fair tax is a per capita tax. Individual pays X, family of 5 pays 5X.
As long as the per capita tax is zero, I'm with ya. Anything higher than that is immoral.
Quote from: rhelwig on May 24, 2005, 09:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on May 24, 2005, 09:08 PM NHFT
As all of us receive the same Tax provided services or protection (or don't) equally, the only fair tax is a per capita tax.? Individual pays X, family of 5 pays 5X.
As long as the per capita tax is zero, I'm with ya. Anything higher than that is immoral.
Well, in a pinch I would settle for 15 cents, but only in a real emergency. ;D
I'll pay for whatever services I feel are necessary to my freedom and security. You are all free to do the same. Since I have, in the past, enjoyed the protection of the fire department when, at age 5, our house caught fire, I liked the idea of joining the *VOLUNTEER* fire department. Most of our funding is voluntary contributions from the community.
JP
OK, I think I'm ready to do this. My property taxes are due on July 1st. I think I'll pay for everything but the schools...so something about 60% of the bill. On June 30, I could have a big demonstration in front of city hall in Keene encouraging people to join the property tax revolt.
what do you guys think?
Oh, it doesn't have to be restricted to Keene ;D
We just need to figure out the % now for Keene. >:D
Quote from: katdillon on June 14, 2005, 05:50 PM NHFT
OK, I think I'm ready to do this.? My property taxes are due on July 1st.? I think I'll pay for everything but the schools...so something about 60% of the bill.? On June 30, I could have a big demonstration in front of city hall in Keene encouraging people to join the property tax revolt.
what do you guys think?
A bold idea! :)
My objections are this:
-Property taxes do not meet a core civil disobedience requirement of being obviously unjust to a large portion of society. It is unfortunate to admit this. :-\
-It would not lead to an immediate arrest. "I'm going to keep... not paying... until I'm arrested!" ;D
-There is no visual aspect to the event, so the media may become bored with us and that could hurt our momentum. ???
I don't really know what to think. We still have little experience with civil disobedience, so we have to keep trying and learning. It could work for all I know!
We don't have to be arrested for something to be right. We just want to keep our money. :)
I also don't care how the media reacts to an idea....that is their problem.
This is not just an event either......this is a long standing revolt
The New Hampshire School Property Tax Revolt
I agree entirely with the principle and the method of the protest!? So go ahead with it if you'd like. I only think we should not try to use most of our media contacts for the event unless we are absolutely dedicated to giving them a very interesting event to cover - a civil disobedience event that has never been tried before, for example!? :)
The FSP, for example, sent dozens :o of different press releases out within the months after the state vote, most of which just annoyed the press and probably made them want to press the Delete button every time they saw who it was coming from. ;D
This would be an important thing to do even if we don't tell the media about it. :)
I have been waiting for the right issue to come along for a table outside our Wal-mart in Keene. This one is perfect. I can set up a table by the South door every available Saturday with a couple of signs and flyers to hand out to people showing how much they can save on their property taxes, if they stop paying for the schools.......instant tax break. :)
Lang Metcalf is my friend's grandfather, and a New Hampshire old timer. He wanted to start a tax rebellion in Lebanon, New Hampshire. He decided not to push for it because he decided that over halfthe town would have to do it for it to be effective. I think that a tax boycott would be very effective, they can't jail everyone.
If you're going to encourage people to not pay for schools, be ready to show how wasteful and worthless government education is compared to homeschool/private alternatives. The Teachers' Union will be out to kill...
Love the idea, but be ready...the Board of Cosmotology doesn't have many defenders in the general public, nor does the TSA. But the misinfo about govt. education will polarize some heavy opposition. Be sure you're prepared for this battle.
Heh, you've never talked to me about the schools.
Here's an update on the press release, Kat has posted an older version to the Wiki. Let's get this baby sent out!
New Hampshire family to defy school property tax
From NHfree.com
Keene, N.H.; June 15 2005
38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth from government schools. In fact, she says she isn't getting anything from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon. "She's never gone to public school and never will. I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June 30 with a check for only a fraction of what the city says she and her family owe.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...we're keeping it. It's our money."
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA regulations at Manchester Airport. And it was Dillon who received the infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher. In May, Fisher gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board and also went to jail for it.
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, but "it's the right thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against school property tax
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why: "It's my money!"
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon, supporters from NHfree.com, whoever wants to join us.
Contacts: Kat Dillon or Russell Kanning (603) 357-2049, backup: Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490. Updates will appear at NHfree.com
I LIKE this idea............ I have a few suggestions, though. :D
1) I wouldn't put as much emphasis on schools.. What about general government waste? What about level funding which repeats spending year after year, even for projects which are already completed? A general "waste in government" campaign will resonate BIG time with NH residents.
2) I KNOW there is a fine balance between bugging reporters and helping them. But they DO want to be fed information from time to time (I have a lot of experience here, and about once a month seems about right). I've had reporters beg me before for any stories on the FSP. What we don't want to send out are "NH Underground comments on HB 219" "stories". They're not news. Events are.
2b) Hence, the final PR should probably go to local media (Sentinel, WKBK) and probably the Union Leader for statewide distribution. Not AP, etc.
3) You might want to get Central Square for the demonstration. Better visiblity. You could get (for free) "permission" to use the park from the Rec Center. Maybe distasteful to some, but if they try to kick us out, won't it be cool to just wave a paper in their faces and say "sorry!". :)
4) This MIGHT be good exposure for an announcement of candidacy for City Council :)
JM
You might want a collection of John Taylor Gatto Books, Some Copies of Rothboards Education: Free and Compulsory
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0945466226/qid=1118852164/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-2647550-4404819?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Maybe even Milton Friedman's free to choose. (Although, he supports vouchers, and then only going to "legitimate schools." )
And you could sort of have a little minni book sale at your table.
Tracy
So she simply refuses to pay the 12% interest as well.
What are they going to do. Eventually, they're going to come after her, with guns, and throw her in jail.
She should set up her own personal blog site to list updates on the details. Her thoughts on how government schools waiste her money. Debates online she might get into. And updates on government actions against her, her responces and thoughts on them.
It's possible she could develope quite a cult following. So that by the time, (you know, 5 years later, when they come to arrest her.) she could have lots of support.
Tracy
We can hand out flyers....so people can adjust their taxes as they see fit. Some might want to subtract for multiple factors. :)
Quote from: president on June 15, 2005, 11:26 AM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 15, 2005, 11:22 AM NHFT
So she simply refuses to pay the 12% interest as well.
What are they going to do.
They will simply sell the property, or wait for her to sell it, and take the tax money, plus interest.
I think the interest rate jumps to 18% once the tax lien thing happens.
So she squats and stays.
Eventually, they'll need to use guns to force her out.
Tracy
Then they'll be shown for the thieves and thugs that they are.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on June 15, 2005, 02:08 PM NHFT
So she squats and stays.
Eventually, they'll need to use guns to force her out.
Tracy
This is when it gets fun >:D
I was just wondering why so many people dislike public education. I see it as a community good, such as roads. It would be extremely inneficient to have everyone pay a toll to use every street, so instead taxes pay for public services like roads. Even if your daughter does not benefit from the public school as she is homeschooled, if you went to public schools, then you did benefit from the education. Personally I like the idea of public schools as it gives everyone an education, which in turn makes them more likely to get a job, and eventually make more money.
And to think we let this guy protest with us. ;D I even lent him my crappie jacket!
I'll let someone better versed in this subject handle this one.
Quote from: danhynes on June 15, 2005, 05:43 PM NHFT
I like the idea of public schools as it gives everyone an education, which in turn makes them more likely to get a job, and eventually make more money.
" . . . it gives everyone an education . . ."That's where you err in your logic.
As my father said, "All children are home-schooled, whether they learn anything in public school or not." Education starts at home, and is best accomplished there through at least age 12; thereafter, the child's needs and abilities will make it clear what education they need.
Kevin
Quote from: danhynes on June 15, 2005, 05:43 PM NHFT
I was just wondering why so many people dislike public education. I see it as a community good, such as roads. It would be extremely inneficient to have everyone pay a toll to use every street, so instead taxes pay for public services like roads. Even if your daughter does not benefit from the public school as she is homeschooled, if you went to public schools, then you did benefit from the education. Personally I like the idea of public schools as it gives everyone an education, which in turn makes them more likely to get a job, and eventually make more money.
The Underground History of American Education
A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm
Govt school = communism.
Education is critical, and that's exactly why government needs to keep its hands off.
Ian that might be a stretch... so paying Fed Taxes supports Communism?
..
Well, socialism and facism. Communism can never be reached. 8)
The problem isn't that the goverment offers public education, it's that they make you pay whether or not you use the service. They make home and private schooler pay twice, they have established a near monopoly on education. I see no problem with the state offering education, so long as they offer a full tax credit to those who don't use public education.
Be prepared for real reprisals on this one Kat. You might wan to run this one by the Keene Taxpayers Association before hand, they might be useful allies in orchestrating a wider revolt.
I live in an apt, and therefore can't pay property tax exactly. How can I help?
Government schools were designed originally from the onset to teach kids to worship the state. It was moddled after the Prussian system, based on the ideas of Rosoe.
It was basesd on the idea to education religioun and Christianity out of kids. That was all that was wrong with the world, that if instead we can teach people to worship the state, then we'd have unity and all our problems would be over.
It was also designed to destroy familial bonds. Indeed. Kindergarted, is a Prussion word. Meaning litterally, that the Kids are flowers and it's the Teachers job to garden them. It was designed to help seperate the bonds between parent and child, while the child is maluble.
I sub in the government schools. I have kids who are supposedly in Advanced Geometry and even calculous classes who can't to basic addition in their heads. We live in a system where over 40% of high school graduates can't read past a 4th grade level. (And our 4th grade level is pretty sad compaired to 4th graders 100 years ago.)
The government schools teach about market faliure and flawed Keynian economics. They teach how FDR "Saved capitalism" from it self, who pulled us out of the Great Depression, when itn Reality it was the Government Federal researve who did that. They worship Lincoln as the "Great Emancipator" and put him on par with Jefferson and Washinton, even though what he did was the antithesis of their principles, and couldn't have cared less about freeing current slaves. The emancipation proclimation didn't free a single slave in the slave states that didn't secede for instance.
They teach how the Articles of Confederation were flawed and how we needed more powerfull central government, when in reality the economy was recovering on it's own quite nicely from the fiat contenental money the colonies and contenental congress were printing to finance the revolutionary war.
In literature they praise socialist writers.
In reality government schools teach kids to be little mindless automatons to work for somebody else.
Indeed, this was the goal. Wilson said, when he was at Princeston "prior to becoming president" that we need a system were a few people get a liberal education, and the rest get taught to work for them.
Big business also had a hand in the current government school system. They wanted to mass produce. But how do you do that, with-out mass consumption. So government schools were designed from the onset to try and teach kids to be greedy, materialistic, hedonists, who want things now, over thinking long term.
They needed cheep labor to do that, so government schools teach kids to become bean counters to work for somebody else. It's diffucult to get cheep labor when the majority of the population knows how to create their own work -- when every individual knows they have the ability to be their own entrapreneur.
The purpose of government school, is to dumb down civilization, and make it stupider. So they'll be easier to manipulate and control.
Do you honestly think the populous would have been so stupid as to swallow that bate and switch tactic about the income tax? About how "We won't need tarrifs anymore with it." And now both are through the roof? If it wasn't for 50+ years of being made stupid and being propagated to "trust government."
Over 90+ of the population could read prior to state wide compulsory schooling. That number started nosediving as soon as it started.
BTW, Roads CAN be produced and developed by the free market.
See this discussion over at FTL
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=1219.0
TRacy
Quote from: MSTCrowT on June 15, 2005, 11:56 PM NHFT
I live in an apt, and therefore can't pay property tax exactly. How can I help?
Some possibilites are writing letters to the editor in your local paper, helping create a flyer to hand out describing what we're doing, distributing flyer to property owners.
I was just realizing that every time we do business in NH, we're paying for the property tax again. Businesses have to pay it, and pass on that cost to us.
I still think the best 'foot in the door' as far as property taxes are concerned, is, "Hey, why can't we whittle 5% off this budget, this year?" and make the bureaucrats explain why they won't.
However, another approach, might be to get laws passed to allow Homeschoolers and people who send their children to Privite Schools, to forgo the School portion of their property taxes.
Quote from: MSTCrowT on June 15, 2005, 11:56 PM NHFT
I live in an apt, and therefore? can't pay property tax exactly.? How can I help?
You can help protect your friends homes 8)
For what I've got against the schools, read this:
http://www.soulawakenings.com/underground/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=Public+Schools
Dan whether these guys try to flay you alive or not, I"m glad you've come to our events and forum...and I hope you won't let em chase you off!
>>So she squats and stays. >>
In new london, CT with t he eminent domain fight they saved their houses from demolition by having someone in the houses at all times, supporters and what not.
You know, another thought I had yesterday was that if someone were to lose their house then they could draw a lot of attention simply by announcing the date and time when they were going to return and re-occupy it.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 16, 2005, 09:17 AM NHFT
Dan whether these guys try to flay you alive or not, I"m glad you've come to our events and forum...and I hope you won't let em chase you off!
>>So she squats and stays.? ?>>
In new london, CT with t he eminent domain fight they saved their houses from demolition by having someone in the houses at all times, supporters and what not.
Hardly Flaying
Dan don't worry you are not alone...
I mean privitzing the public roads is almost last on my list of concerns.
When all the other issues are solved. Then maybe someone can try and convince me but until then I don't think that it is a major worry. Along with some other things.
...in the meantime I will stop paying for the schools :D
IMHO The Gov Schools are one of the biggest obstacles to freedom that we face. Mind control of our children is their goal. Making them good little submissive doobies.
Re privatizing roads:
Lots of variations are possible. For instance: All roads within a town could be turned over to the people in the town to maintain. (Not the Town Government, I would hope, but a private business owned by the residents of the town.)
RE :roads
There are big fish to fry and other things that are way more important and...... doable in the forseeable future cuz let's face it.. not everyone is ready for that.
In regards to public school. I agree that Russell and Family shouldn't have to pay because they don't use it. But that doesn't mean that I am 100% against public schools.
I am 100% against government run schools. They are an abomination and should not be allowed. I'm not one for making laws, but this one I feel pretty strongly about.
I would rather a large percentage of the population go uneducated than have them in such monstrosities. (Not that a significant amount of people would go uneducated)
http://honestedu.org/
did you go to government schools?
I went K- 6 private Catholic school in MA ( Google Father Paul Shanley for more info).
Then public from 7 -12.
Although I thought the school was super super super liberal I don't think it was 'bad'.
Quote from: katdillon on June 16, 2005, 04:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: MSTCrowT on June 15, 2005, 11:56 PM NHFT
I live in an apt, and therefore can't pay property tax exactly. How can I help?
Some possibilites are writing letters to the editor in your local paper, helping create a flyer to hand out describing what we're doing, distributing flyer to property owners.
I was just realizing that every time we do business in NH, we're paying for the property tax again. Businesses have to pay it, and pass on that cost to us.
You could encourage your land-lord to not pay the property taxes, and use that money to make improvements on his property, or give his tenants a rebate w/ it.
Tracy
Quote from: AlanM on June 16, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
IMHO The Gov Schools are one of the biggest obstacles to freedom that we face. Mind control of our children is their goal. Making them good little submissive doobies.
Hey, Alan, you're giving Doobies a bad name, here!
Quote from: Dreepa on June 16, 2005, 12:55 PM NHFT
did you go to government schools?
Yes, I did go to government schools. I knew they were bad, but didn't realize how bad until I was in my 20s.
It wasn't just the violence and despair, but the lack of education - and I was a nerd who liked learning.
We've got to stop grading schools on a curve, i.e. "my school must not be bad since it is better than that other school". A school can be far superior to the average and still not be decent.
Imagine if car manufacturing was run by the government. We'd be driving around in brand new Model Ts.
There has been virtually no improvement in education since government took over. In fact, quite the opposite has been occurring.
BTW, I work for an educational software company that sells mostly to government schools (and some prisons), like the entire state of Idaho. My first computer job was testing educational games (Oregon Trail, anyone?). My second computer job was working with educational courseware. While I'm no "expert", I have seen more than enough to know that we
need to get government totally out of education. Crap like No Children Learning Better is only helping bureaucrats justify their power and pay.
They're spending $12,000/prisonerstudent in Keene.
Seems a little high for Keene. I tried to find the Cost per student here in Hartford, but, couldn't. I looked up privite school tuitions and found Greenwood Sudbury in Hampton, CT, $4800.00 per year. Deerfield Academy is between 33,000 and 44,000 per year.
While researching, I found the article below.
__________________________________-
http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-08-03.html
We just took $47-$49,000,000 / 3824 students that was their budget
Wow... and I thought 7k/student was high.. :o
Well the measly $300/yr my wife and I pay, representing about half of our property taxes, will not do much to help the Newmarket School District. ;)
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 16, 2005, 02:50 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on June 16, 2005, 10:06 AM NHFT
IMHO The Gov Schools are one of the biggest obstacles to freedom that we face. Mind control of our children is their goal. Making them good little submissive doobies.
Hey, Alan, you're giving Doobies a bad name, here!
My sincere apologies doobies. :(
Here's my latest version of the national version of the press release, a local version will appear later in the thread.
New Hampshire family to defy school tax
From NHfree.com
Keene, N.H.; June 15 2005
38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth from government schools. In fact, she says she isn't getting anything from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon. "She's never gone to public school and never will. I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June 30 with a check for only 42% of what the city says she and her family owe.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...we're keeping it. It's our money."
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is a longtime opponent of tax-funded schooling, which she considers "education prevention." And she's no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA regulations at Manchester Airport. And it was Dillon who received the infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher. In May, Fisher gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board and also went to jail for it.
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, possibly even the loss of her home. "But," she says, "it's the right thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against school property tax
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why: Because people shouldn't be forced to pay for a system they don't use or agree with
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon, supporters from NHfree.com, whoever wants to join us.
Contacts: Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049, Backup: Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490
For more information on the libertarian experiment in New Hampshire, and information on immigrating here for more freedom, visit www.FreeStateProject.org
This event seems to be generating a higher volume of discussion around the internet than the airport thing...slightly higher. I've posted it to about 12 forums nationally plus the 3 big NH forums. Doesn't seem to be going wild on the NH forums but is generating a ton of debate on the Net generallly
Here are links to some of the New Hampshire forums discussing it:
http://merrimackforum.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2082
http://salemnhforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=979
Quote from: katdillon on June 16, 2005, 05:00 PM NHFT
They're spending $12,000/prisonerstudent in Keene.
For what it worth the NH DOE list the 2003-2004 numbers for Keene as
$11,843 Elementary
$ 9,397 Junion high
$ 8,359 High School
They play some sort of numbers game since the annual budget divided by students is generaly higher than the state numbers.
http://www.ed.state.nh.us/education/data/ReportsandStatistics/FinancialReports/CostPerPupil/CostPerPupil2003-2004/CostPerPupil2003-2004Frameset.htm
I got on the air at WKBK and mentioned this at the tail end of the Al Kulas show Saturday morning. Told him what Kat is planning to do. Tim Robertson was on his way in to pick up the start of his own show and I could hear him in the background reacting - and boy was he reacting! He said "they'll take her house!" then he said "does she have a mortgage?" Al seemed shocked by the whole thing but excited. Wouldn't say necessarily that he supports it but it did seem to capture his attention!
Good to hear that our caring politicians are already planning our punishments
Here's the latest version for distribution inside NH
Keene family to defy school tax
From NHfree.com
Keene, N.H.; June 15 2005
38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth from government schools. In fact, she says she isn't getting anything from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon. "She's never gone to public school and never will. I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June 30 with a check for only 42% of what the city says she and her family owe.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...we're keeping it. It's our money."
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is a longtime opponent of tax-funded schooling, which she considers "education prevention." And she's no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA regulations at Manchester Airport. And it was Dillon who received the infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher. In May, Fisher gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board and also went to jail for it.
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, possibly even the loss of her home. "But," she says, "it's the right thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against school property tax
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why: Because people shouldn't be forced to pay for a system they don't use or agree with
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon of Keene, supporters from NHfree.com
Contacts: Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049, Backup: Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490
I've sent this press release out to 30 liberty lovers on my email list mostly in-state.
For some reason, I'm still in denial that Kat and Russell are doing this. ? ;D
They definitely deserve all the support I can give, so I will get my butt into gear!
This protest DOES meet the requirement that it is obviously just. ?I only could not see it before as clearly as I see it now.
My prior concern of overusing the media is also unfounded. ?This is an extremely interesting issue, especially here in New Hampshire!!!
I will send this press release to all of my media contacts. ? :)
Couple thoughts... I haven't yet heard anyone articulate why *Keene* public schools should not get our money. People seem to want to know that. General disagreement with public schools may not cut it in the debate that will ensue. Personally I don't know much about Keene public schools can anyone enlighten me about their faults and saving graces if any?
The only thing I could say is that there seems to be a lot of waste going on considering how long they have held on to that sinkhole 34 West building.
also my press release doestn't do such a great job articulating why public schools fail to help society, maybe it could use an update. I like the idea of folks grabbing the releases and just making new ones rather than merely suggesting changes. Less delay that way,
Dada,the issue here IS opposition to Compulsory Schooling, coupled with Compulsory Financing of same. If it becomes framed to a question of inefficiency or waste, the issue is clouded.
Kat's arguments in the press release cover the primary argument.? You do not need to attack Keene's public schools, or any other public schools at all, to make your point.
The point is this:
Human beings have a right to decide how they will educate their children and how they will spend their own money to do it.
Especially because she has a daughter and wants to educate her outside of the public school system, NO tax money should be taken from her for educating someone else's children.? She needs the money for her own daughter.
Especially in this case, the education-related property tax is unjust.
Quote from: AlanM on June 20, 2005, 08:10 AM NHFT
Dada,the issue here IS opposition to Compulsory Schooling, coupled with Compulsory Financing of same. If it becomes framed to a question of inefficiency or waste, the issue is clouded.
Agreed. I made this mistake with my protest by making it a question of business regulations instead of consumer rights. :-\
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 20, 2005, 08:15 AM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on June 20, 2005, 08:10 AM NHFT
Dada,the issue here IS opposition to Compulsory Schooling, coupled with Compulsory Financing of same. If it becomes framed to a question of inefficiency or waste, the issue is clouded.
Agreed.? I made this mistake with my protest by making it a question of business regulations instead of consumer rights.? ?:-\
Mike, I think it is BOTH consumer rights, AND business regulations. A person should be free to run a business as they wish, and a consumer should be able to make their own choices, free from regulation.
Add something to the press release that says:
"We need this money to educate Kira at home.? How am I supposed to afford homeschooling for my daughter when I'm forced to pay for public school even if she's not in it?"
...as long as Kat or Russell agree to be the source of that quote.
Then add a sentence to the press release stating something like this:
In New Hampshire, all property owners are required to pay for public schools.? No exceptions are allowed for those who choose to take their children out of the public school system.
"What was needed was some kind of halfway house that would train individuals for the halfway lives ordinary people would be more and more called upon to lead. In a utopia of machinery and steam, there could be free lunch for unprecedented numbers?but only if there were chains, bread, and water for the rest, at least for some unknown while. Plans for such a halfway institution as forced schooling (think of it as a training factory or a training mine) came together in Boston, Philadelphia, and New York, drawn by the best minds, for the best motives. They inflicted stupendous damage on the libertarian rights and privileges bequeathed to Americans by the nation?s founders."
From "Underground History of American Education" John Taylor Gatto
This is what the whole issue boils down to IMO.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 20, 2005, 08:19 AM NHFT
Add something to the press release that says:
"We need this money to educate Kira at home. How am I supposed to afford homeschooling for my daughter when I'm forced to pay for public school even if she's not in it?"
...as long as Kat or Russell agree to be the source of that quote.
Then add a sentence to the press release stating something like this:
In New Hampshire, all property owners are required to pay for public schools. No exceptions are allowed for those who choose to take their children out of the public school system.
Mike feel free to re-write the press release, if and when you get kat's permission on the quote, I would just change the last line to read as follows
In New Hampshire, as in most states, all property owners are required to pay for public schools. No exceptions are allowed for those who choose to take their children out of the public school system.
I tried to get something started a couple years back that was trying to make it so there was a dollar-for-dollar tax credit against the state-wide property tax for ALL donations to any private, religious or homeschool in NH. This might work at a local level too......
So, you have a $4,000 property tax bill, but you spent (and got receipts for) $2,500 in expenses for your home-school kid, and donate $1,500 that year to a private school, your tax bill is $0.
That would deflate the "harming the children" myth.
JM
Quote from: jgmaynard on June 20, 2005, 09:49 AM NHFT
I tried to get something started a couple years back that was trying to make it so there was a dollar-for-dollar tax credit against the state-wide property tax for ALL donations to any private, religious or homeschool in NH. This might work at a local level too......
So, you have a $4,000 property tax bill, but you spent (and got receipts for) $2,500 in expenses for your home-school kid, and donate $1,500 that year to a private school, your tax bill is $0.
That would deflate the "harming the children" myth.
JM
NH Supreme Court has ruled that tax credits to religious schools violate the Church State separation clause, according to someone I trust to know these things (She's an old hand at the State House).
So why not tax credits for non-religious schools? Homeschoolers could use some assistance and freedom from paying into the compulsory system.
There's a better way to state this position; a talk was held in England last year about the subject called "Is education too important to leave to the State?" Whether or not "the State" rather than "the Government" will resonate with the populace is a bit of a question. We understand the State to mean all government, but others may not get that the federal government falls under that umbrella as well. They may just take it to mean the New Hampshire state government.
"Education is too important to leave to the Government"
or
"Education is too important to leave to the State"
A transcript from a talk held on the subject in England:
http://www.thersa.org/acrobat/blackstone_010404.pdf
The best part of approaching the question of how education is delivered from this angle is that it's 100% true. Education is far too important to let the government keep screwing it up.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 20, 2005, 07:21 AM NHFT
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well.? She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
HA! This is illegal. It's called criminal solicitation!
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/629/629-2.htm
TITLE LXII
CRIMINAL CODE
CHAPTER 629
INCHOATE CRIMES
Section 629:2
629:2 Criminal Solicitation. ?
I.
A person is guilty of criminal solicitation if, with a purpose that another engage in conduct constituting a crime, he commands, solicits or requests such other person to engage in such conduct. II. It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor renounced his criminal purpose by persuading the other not to engage in the criminal conduct or by otherwise preventing commission of the crime under circumstances manifesting a purpose that it not occur.
III. It is no defense to prosecution under this section that the person solicited would be immune from liability for engaging in the criminal conduct by virtue of irresponsibility, incapacity or exemption.
IV.
The penalty for criminal solicitation is the same as that authorized for the crime that was solicited, except that in the case of solicitation of murder the punishment shall be imprisonment for a term of not more than 30 years.
Source. 1971, 518:1, eff. Nov. 1, 1973. 1999, 158:2, eff. June 28, 1999.
Hmmm... if the punishment is the same, then what will they do? Immediately take your home away? ::)
How about this?
--clipped--
Edit: Removed press release rejected by Kat. :)
I didn't realize that urging others to do the same is a crime; but I assume Kat can still lead a protest without violating the law that day. Unless she wants to violate two laws!
Doesn't a law that prevents people from urging others to do something violate the 1st Amendment?
Msgs I got from Ed Naile with CNHT, after I told him about this and suggested Kat as a guest for his thursday show. He gave permission to print them here. Kat can you be on Taxpayer Radio Thursday? can you contact ed or jane?
---
Dave:
She is welcome on our show anytime. All we need do is contact Jane for a
schedule.
Yes she will lose her home and the town will take it gladly just like
they have in Weare and Wilton to some of our former CNHT members. Lots of
homes have been taken all over the state that belonged to people who we do
not know. If she thinks the publicity is worth it she will have to make he
mind up soon.
Ed
Bob:
Your absolutely right about the Constitution. So good luck with the
courts. Maybe they will do a 180 and change their mind. In the mean time
they will lose their house and property and be saddled with criminal records
and debt that will compound every year. I hoped we could use them to win
battles that leave us out walking around but if they feel there is some way
to win by sitting in jail I hope they don't change their minds later.
Remember how impassioned Steve Swan, Andy Templeman and Bernie Bastion
were? I would try to talk to them and they would recite all the laws to me
for hours and hours and I couldn't get a word in edge-wise. They may still
be out there doing their part for freedom but Andy and Bernie lost their
homes and businesses and Steve is serving 8 years in a federal lock-up.
Chuck McGee is in for 7 more months but he gets press almost every week.
Andy, Steve, and Bernie get no press. There is no one championing their
causes. We don't see them anywhere and all the good work they put into
everything is lost from what I can see.
But they were right. If that is enough for them go for it.
Ed
Dave:
This same thing happened in Mass. several years ago in an upscale
neighborhood. The owners occupied the place with the help of other friends.
And they had a pretty compelling argument that they did not owe taxes on it.
I forget what it was right now I can try to find it on the web. The media
was there almost every day.
What the press and town did was bring in the family who bought the house
at the tax sale and have that family hang around homeless to offset any
sympathy the public had for the previous owners.
Remember Gandhi started with nothing and was willing to die. If you try
that route you will be put on intravenous.
Just looking at the history of this scale of activism. I hate to lose
good people to the bureaucracy and their minions , who by the way, love our
side doing this. They play it as justification of their powers.
Ed
Dave:
On losing the house: It will take about three years for the town to grab
it for back taxes. I suggest reading the state statutes about tax deeds just
to be up on them.
If by some chance they can get a court to look into this for some
Constitutional grounds, and there are plenty, they may get a stay or
something, depends on the issues and judge. Each case is a little different
but here is what to expect. If they pay $3,000.00 per year and are three
years behind that is $9,000.00 and there will be I think 18% added on for
late fees, the town will sell the place and give you back what they are not
asking for in taxes.
Back in 1996? we got legislation passed to prevent towns from keeping the
whole property for a pittance in back taxes. It was HB55 and HB56 at the
time I forget but I would call that a small victory that has stopped the
lust for certain properties by criminal officials in some towns being the
reason to "forget" to sent tax bills out for three years to the proper
place.
CNHT just helped a guy get back a piece that was going this route in
Windsor.
- Ed
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 20, 2005, 07:52 PM NHFT
Doesn't a law that prevents people from urging others to do something violate the 1st Amendment?
Pretty Much!
Sent this to Walter Williams:
It has been a source of some sorrow to me that you, the man who arguably gave birth to the Free State Project, or at least to the idea behind it...have paid it so little attention in your public commentary over the last three years. During that time a lot has happened, a compelling series of events which have received only a fraction of the attention they deserve.
Here is a news item from the Free State I hope *will* grab your attention and that you will consider it worth mentioning. The lady who's doing this is one of the 108 Free Staters who have moved to New Hampshire; so am I. We are causing quite a ruckus! For more information on our libertarian mischief making in New Hampshire, inspired by you, visit NHfree.com
---
New Hampshire family refuses to pay school tax
(then i attached the news release)
My read on all this civil dis stuff so far...
Here are a couple things that seem to be happening with regard to the civil disobedience that's going on:
1) We seem to get the most sympathy when protests are conducted over innocuous things like manicuring
2) After a person gets arrested, it seems they usually feel a need to stand down for a while in terms of getting arrested again. This happens whether or not they planned to get arrested again (fortunately no one ever promised they would get arrested twice).
3) We also seem to have the most effectiveness when a civil dis protest is discussed on the forums for a week or two before being decided upon
4) Those initially unsupportive of a protest within our movement usually change their mind to some extent as the thing becomes reality. This happened to me big time...I was not sure manicuring was a good issue...and was wrong!
5) The initial reaction among average people on web forums at least is vicious attack, especially against the more serious protests. Then the attackers get counterattacked by garden variety freedom lovers and a reasoned debate springs up.
Also Kat are you having any second thoughts based on the concerns Ed has raised above? Will you be able to put tons of energy into this thing for years without us losing you on other activistm? I suppose if you were not certain about all this you could back out or moderate your protest anytime before the 30th and not that many would notice. I should have suggested this before this came up. But if you are comfortable going forward after knowing all the risks of course I will support you as best I can and I hope others here will as well.
BTW on the "neutral" NH forums Kat appears to be getting better levels of approval than russell did for his protest
4 somewhat supportive (at least of the goal if not the exact method)
5 somewhat antagonistic (though some of those do say they want downsizing)
With regard to ed's concern above about Bernie and Andy not getting publicity, I suspect they didn't have the kind of infrastructure support that Kat has.
Also what is the history on controversial civil dis protests by small groups not supported by the majority? Seems like the 60s radicals got a lot of what they wanted and are now in positions of power to some extent. how about the greenpeacers and others?
Historically to what extent do initially unpopular protests hurt or help the cause of the protestors?
We should think about these things I guess...
BTW I don't think I like the idea of a criminal solicitation protest since I am not sure criminal solicitation laws are necessarily anti-freedom?
Another note from Ed Naile regarding Kat's planend protest:
Dave:
Here are some of the protests that made news I can remember.
January 15, 1998, New Hampshire: Constitutionalist Edward James Loh is arrested for driving a truck without license plates, drivers license or registration. He is charged with operating without a valid license, having an unregistered vehicle and disobeying a police officer. Loh refuses to pay his $25 bail, which lands him in jail for months until his trial date is set. He could face up to a year in jail.
I have no idea where he is.
There was a person that fought "Live Free or Die" on his NH license plate. He won in the US Supreme Court and was allowed to cover it with tape.
All throughout the nineties in NH there was a small band of activists that pursued a crooked judge in Newport named Franklin. The state protected him and even sent him his retirement checks while he was hiding out in Vegas where he finally "committed suicide." This activity led to some of the same people investigating the State Supreme Court and finally getting a shot at them through the Thayer divorce which led to the impeachment of the Chief Justice Brock and several "retirements." But the cost was everything the self-made lawyer Theo Kamisinsky owned. I have no clue where he is. That band of activists, the late Dick Bosa et al, have disappeared from what I know. They seemed unable to continue effectively and it is a loss to the state. The voters in NH smelled something wrong with our courts and the justices are still a bit wary of getting the public mad again. (Claremont came along about that time) We should keep working that angle because it will take years and honest judges to erase what Brock and his cronies did. We have the time, they still have crooks.
We had a guy who pursued the vanity plates that are prized by mucky-mucks in NH. He may have died as well. He had some interesting evidence of a certain Executive Councilor getting big bucks for grabbing one for certain people. I talked to him several times but have no idea where he is now. In fact, someone approached me several months ago looking for him.
There have been a bunch of protesters and activists I have come in contact with over 17 years I have been at it. Many burn out and go into financial ruin which takes some time to come out of. Many get divorced and move. It is not a wholesome or rewarding challenge and I always urge people to NOT make themselves a target. Many for some reason keep all their paperwork so no one else can use it?????????????
I have been threatened with lawsuits about a dozen times, arrest a dozen or so, contempt of court once, a couple of physical threats I always welcome with a laugh, and I have been stalked by hostile media. I have a stack of hate mail, some are poems. I have TWO "Certificates of Upgrade to Complete Asshole" I cherish.
I have also learned how the left PLAYS people like me. I have gotten phone calls from liberals who only wanted to talk to me so they could make up whatever they wanted me to have said during the conversation. This is a standard in my town.
I know how they slight you in front of others in a sophisticated way to let their friends know a conservative is among them. There is all kinds of stuff to learn.
So I hate to see good activists leap into traps of costly career ending civil disobedience before they learn the ropes.
Think about it Dave. I had people assemble at the LOB to protest me and Grover Norquist in front of the press. The statewide media did not cover it because they would only be selling CNHT's "importance." They are not stupid. But the crowd protesting are at their wits end with how to deal with our group. They had me responsible for all kinds of stuff I would have loved to have done. "Intimidating the legislature?" "Especially the Senate?"
Grover is national/international, millions of bucks, a whole floor office in DC, Harvard grad. meets with everyone who is anyone, and has been at it for years. We have a small office several grand in the bank, a solid mailing list, radio program, newspaper, we answer to no one, and that is it. We have never been arrested or hardly scratched by our opponents but we drive them nuts and laugh doing it.
I hope the new residents work with us for a short time before going out on a limb with some types of activism.
Ed
Where is Kat? She needs to approve this press release before I send it out! ???
I like what Ed Naile has to say. He is very smart. He's been teaching me about how to use the 91-A Right to Know law. It is a very powerful method of possibly uncovering corruption in elected officials. This law alone can make bureaucrats' lives miserable.
Anyone who is politically inclined should probably follow his advice.
Unfortunately, my principles do not allow for exploitation of the law or making someone's life miserable.
I agree with Ed's cautious stance. It's important to know thy enemy.
I think our infrastructure, thanks to the internet, is stronger than it was when those protests that he mentioned occured.
We know our enemy. They are those who masquerade as though they are our "servants" but actually wish to control us. They are a big gang. A group of common thugs. Some of them believe they are doing the right thing. Some are just controlling sickos.
These people need to be fought now. Our momentum is growing. If Kat and Russell have the cojones to see this through, hopefully there are several activists in NH that will stand by them. At appearances, court hearings, protests, etc. I know that Free Talk Live will cover every moment of it!
Ed urges restraint and caution. Caution is warranted, as well as some paranoia. However, there is no better time than NOW to fight tyranny. We are the New American Revolution. The longer we wait, the greater the oppression.
Go Kat and Russell!
You are true heroes of Liberty.
Ian
Agreed, Ian. These two are heros in my book.
On another note, I think refusing to pay property taxes may not be considered a "crime" in the legal sense. Nonpayment of taxes is not covered under the criminal code in New Hampshire's statutes.
Where are these NH "neutral" web forums.
Tracy
I'm in CT. I don't really like the changes to the press release. I doubt I will use the money directly for Kira's education. The schools are one of the biggest evils in our society and I think it's wrong to pay for them. It's my money, not theirs.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on April 30, 2005, 07:16 PM NHFT
<<They will still get their tax money. They will merely borrow the money until they can take your house for taxes.>>
Unless there is something keeping them from taking the house. We need to be thinking about that in case this really happens...what are the things that could keep a state or city bureaucracy from taking a tax protestors house without violating the Zero Aggression Principle?
There's always the Howard Roark gambit. :D
the two most active ostensibly neutral web forums in NH are
merrimackforum.org
and
salemnhforum.org
nhindymedia.org is supposedly leftist but starting to catch the liberty virus
Quote from: katdillon on June 22, 2005, 04:16 AM NHFT
I'm in CT.? I don't really like the changes to the press release.? I doubt I will use the money directly for Kira's education.? The schools are one of the biggest evils in our society and I think it's wrong to pay for them.? It's my money, not theirs.
Okay, I've deleted out that version of it so nobody uses it by mistake.
If you are not going to use it directly for her education, are you going to spend more money because she's not in school? When someone's in school, both spouses can work full time. When a child is homeschooled, there is a lot of lost "opportunity income" because you must raise her rather than sending her to the local jail-school government babysitting service.
So another possible quote is:
"How can people afford to raise and homeschool children if they are forced to pay for public schools at the same time?"
or
"It is immoral to force a family to pay for public school, especially when they have children that are in private school or homeschool."
Hmmm... well that sounds like an allusion to vouchers, which would be a disaster for everyone involved. I'm trying to find a way to make the protest more obviously just to more people, but perhaps that is not necessary.
Perhaps, as with our previous protests, the result of the action will prove that the cause is obviously just.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on April 24, 2005, 09:04 PM NHFT
What would happen if all liberty lovers in NH just decided to stop paying property tax??
Just editing first message to show what's happening on this.? KD
Family to defy school property tax
From NHfree.com
Keene, N.H.; June 15 2005
38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth
from government schools.? In fact, she says she isn't getting anything
from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon.? "She's never gone to public
school and never will.? I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for
them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June
30 with a check for only a fraction of what the city says she owes.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...I'm keeping it.?
It's my money."
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will stand outside city
hall urging others to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she
has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire others to do
the same, but that she will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell
Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA
regulations at Manchester airport.? And it was Dillon who received the
infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher.? ?In May, Fisher
gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board
and also went to jail for it.? ?
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of
civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, but "it's the right
thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against school property tax, followed by
protest.? ?
Why:? ?"It's my money!"
How:? By handing over a check that does not include the "school
portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle),
Keene, NH.
When:? 10:00 A.M. June 30, 2005.?
Who:? Kat Dillon, supporters from NHfree.com, whoever wants to join us.
Contacts:? Kat Dillon or Russell Kanning (603) 357-2049, backup: Dave
Ridley (603) 721-1490.? Updates will appear at NHfree.com
Don't pay taxes...get arrested again. At some point you will learn. Your daughter is homeschooled? Oh boy! Probably a good idea...those kids in the public schools would tease her to no end I bet. It must be hard being the by-product of a couple like yourselves....whoa! :o
Hey Kat...your money helps EVERYONE. Stop being so @#%! self-righteous and egotistical. We are a SOCIETY. We help one another. We give into a pool to fund schools so ALL can be educated. It's nice that you have the time to school your little troll, but not all are afforded that opportunity. Public schools serve their purpose. As long as parents raise their children properly, they can excel in public schools. Not everyone teaches their children to resist everything that is not their idea.
Quote from: foreverfree on June 22, 2005, 12:49 PM NHFT
Hey Kat...your money helps EVERYONE. Stop being so @#%! self-righteous and egotistical. We are a SOCIETY. We help one another. We give into a pool to fund schools so ALL can be educated. It's nice that you have the time to school your little troll, but not all are afforded that opportunity. Public schools serve their purpose. As long as parents raise their children properly, they can excel in public schools. Not everyone teaches their children to resist everything that is not their idea.
You are the troll. And apparanly a communist as well.
I recommend everyone ignore this waste of bits.
You want to ignore me because you know I speak the truth. You can't substantiate your lies and disillusioned thoughts.
Quote from: foreverfree on June 22, 2005, 02:34 PM NHFT
You want to ignore me because you know I speak the truth. You can't substantiate your lies and disillusioned thoughts.
Oh I get it now. You're not a troll, but a comedian. :)
Of course the money taken from us all to give to the government schools is causing harm. That's self-evident.
What I don't get is how anyone can possibly say that government schools are part of "helping one another" when they clearly are not.
From Dada in an earlier post.
____________________________________________________________________
We're about to have a problem which is, as they say, the kind of problem you want to have...because only successful web forums have it.
Sooner or later as this site gets more popular it will, like all web forums, start attracting a lot of trolls, i.e. people who are here to destroy the environment of our little web community. Some will make personal attacks or start flame wars, others will resort to sexual references. Still others will simply try to eat up your time with debate. They'd rather see you debating them than taking action for liberty. The important thing is not to give them what they want.
Every troll has a slightly different motivation but most of them want one or more of the folllowing:
1) Attention, hateful or otherwise.
2) To drive away people from the forum by making it a less friendly place
3) To force moderators to delete their posts so they can accuse someone of violating their free speech
The important thing is generally to not give them what they want. Don't respond to them, don't leave the forum because of them and (in the case of moderators) don't delete their posts unless it's really necessary and deletion appears to be supported by the other participants.
Take trolls for what they are: A sign of success and a test of your will. Pass the test by sticking with us and giving the bad guys no aid and comfort.
Report to moderator Logged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is your state rep a tax thug? Find out:
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 20, 2005, 08:02 AM NHFT
Couple thoughts...? I haven't yet heard anyone articulate why *Keene* public schools should not get our money.? ? People seem to want to know that.? ?General disagreement with public schools may not cut it in the debate that will ensue.? ?Personally I don't know much about Keene public schools can anyone enlighten me about their faults and saving graces if any??
don't negotiate with terrorists or thugs
Quote from: foreverfree on June 22, 2005, 12:49 PM NHFT
Hey Kat...your money helps EVERYONE. Stop being so @#%! self-righteous and egotistical. We are a SOCIETY. We help one another. We give into a pool to fund schools so ALL can be educated. It's nice that you have the time to school your little troll, but not all are afforded that opportunity. Public schools serve their purpose. As long as parents raise their children properly, they can excel in public schools. Not everyone teaches their children to resist everything that is not their idea.
Her money can BETTER help everyone it it's spent through volentary interactions w/in society, instead of having it confiscated and monopolised by top-down bereaucracies.
Tracy
I was talking about this with Russell on the way back from CT yesterday. I am going to take whatever money I'm not giving to the public schools and donate it to the Liberty Scholarship Fund. That way, it'll be a double-whammy....the money is not going to the public schools AND it's being used to help other people leave the public school system.
Quote from: katdillon on June 23, 2005, 06:56 AM NHFT
I was talking about this with Russell on the way back from CT yesterday.? ?I am going to take whatever money I'm not giving to the public schools and donate it to the Liberty Scholarship Fund.? That way, it'll be a double-whammy....the money is not going to the public schools AND it's being used to help other people leave the public school system.
A double-whammy indeed!? :o
This makes it quite clear that people will contribute voluntarily to private educational institutions without the need for any laws.
This is simultaneously a protest against the law and a proposed alternative solution!
what about making a new press release that articulates what Kat is planning to do with the money? and then sending it to all the same media to which we sent the original?
Is anyone planning on being in Keene on the 30th?
Here is a possible headline for an updated press release:
Keene mom will send tax money to charity instead of city
Kat there is an 80% chance I'll be there.
I've communicated with about 6 others who say they are interested in coming....probably about 2 of them will.
Turnout's not going to be as high as the other events I'm sure what with you being off in the corner instead of in the middle of the state.
Quote from: katdillon on June 23, 2005, 11:38 AM NHFT
Is anyone planning on being in Keene on the 30th?
Unfortunately, I leave again on the 28th... Dang...
I do appreciate what Ed has to say. I'm not ready for the CD route myself, but rest assured I take absolutely no pride, joy, or any other warm fuzzy at knowing a gazillion dollars of my money goes towards government schools.
I'll be thinking about you from one of the less free places in the world (mainland China).
V-
Quote from: katdillon on June 23, 2005, 11:38 AM NHFT
Is anyone planning on being in Keene on the 30th?
My family is coming in from Utah on the 30th. If they arrive later in the evening, which I believe is true, then I'll come to your event. If not, then I can't go. :-\
Alright, how's this for a new and hopefully-improved press release?? ?;)
From NHfree.com
For Immediate Release
Keene mom sending tax money to non-profit instead of city
Keene, NH, June 23, 2005 - 38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth from government schools.? In fact, she says she isn't getting anything from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon.? "She's never gone to public school and never will.? I don't get any use out of it, so it's wrong for them to make me pay for it."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June 30 with a check for only 42% of what the city says she and her family owe.? She will donate the other 58% to the Liberty Scholarship Fund (LSF), a statewide non-profit that gives $1,000 scholarships to families to help cover the costs of homeschool or private school.? Dillon is Vice Chair of the LSF.
"The part that would have gone to public schools... we're donating it to the Liberty Scholarship Fund.? This will help other people leave the public school system."
Dillon says her protest will prove that New Hampshire's tax laws are unfair to families that choose to educate their children in homeschool or private school.? She adds, "this would be so much better if they just didn't take my tax money in the first place.? Why aren't families like ours exempt from paying the school portion of property taxes?"
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging other "alternative education" families to "recalculate" their taxes as well.? She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is no stranger to protest.? On June 11 her husband Russell Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA regulations at Manchester Airport.? And it was Dillon who received the infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher.? In May, Fisher gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board and also went to jail for it.? ?
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, possibly even the loss of her home.? "But," she says, "it's the right thing to do."
Summary:
What:? Civil disobedience against the school portion of property taxes.
How:? By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why:? ?Because people shouldn't be forced to pay for a system they don't use or agree with.
Where:? Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When:? 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who:? Kat Dillon of Keene, supporters from NHfree.com
Contacts:? Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049, Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, Backup:? Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490
Sounds good to me. Thanks, Mike.
Thanks!? :) :) :)
Most of the changes include your exact quotes from earlier posts in the NH Underground forums. ;)
I'll send it out right now!
Does anyone have the contact info of a reporter at the Keene Sentinel that you can send to me in a private message?? Thanks.
Okay, now what about signage!!!?
I just send this press release out to my contacts at:
-CNHT
-Union Leader
-Concord Monitor
-Keene Sentinel
-Associated Press
If anyone has contacts at appropriate local publications in western New Hampshire, please send it to me in a private message. Thanks! :)
From today's Sentinel:
Most don?t owe in Keene: Few are missing tax payments
PETER J. CLEARY
Sentinel Staff
?I fear that the city of Keene will eventually tax us out of town ... How can we pay our mortgages and taxes on the average $12-an-hour job in Keene??
?I?m beginning to understand why generations ago the good people of Boston decided to throw my country?s tea into the harbor.?
?Taxpayers in Keene should be livid! ... I?m getting to the end of my rope and hope others are, too.?
? Letters to the editor
We will also try to be there, Kat.
Cathleen
Trying is the predecessor to failing.
Do or do not. 8)
::) ::)
Quote from: katdillon on June 23, 2005, 11:38 AM NHFT
Is anyone planning on being in Keene on the 30th?
I will be there, and will help distribute fliers and/or hold a sign. :)
To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. While I agree that you are right in principle (by the way, how about mentioning those of us who choose to not even HAVE children, and still get stuck holding the bag for other people?), and I have an enormous amount of respect for your courage, I think that more is involved and is at stake here. I assume the purpose of doing this publicly, and sending out press releases about it, is to inform and educate as many people as possible that the current system is screwed up, you will not participate any more, and you are encouraging others to do so as well. But speaking does no good if your words are misinterpreted, and this is an action that is almost guaranteed to be both honestly misinterpreted, and intentionally distorted by the opposition. I would hope that you'll put a lot of thought and effort into the public statements you make about this (including on this forum). Please emphasize the positives (you are trying to take the best possible care of your child; you believe that public schools harm children and feel it is morally wrong to support them; etc.) rather than the perceived negatives (you disagree with the majority of society and don't give a fig what they think, screw them, you're keeping your money; you don't care what happens to other people's children, even though, right or wrong, a certain percentage of the current American population is dependent upon public schools for both the education of, and daycare for, their children, who are of course innocent and powerless in this matter). And I find what Ed Naile has to say on the subject very, very sobering. No offense intended, just expressing my opinion.
Giving the tax underpayment to the LSF is a BRILLIANT idea!! That should go a very long way towards deflating any arguments re: "selfish", "don't care about the children", etc. I would really play that up. For example, the headline of press releases could be "Local Tax Protester to Give Taxes to Private Scholarship Fund, not Government". edit: Oops, looks like you're already doing that. ;D
I thought I would share this letter that was emailed today to Maine property owners who are also struggling with increasing property tax rates. A few letters really can make a difference!
Greetings!
United States Senator George Mitchell once told Mainers that if he
received a total of ten letters from Mainers on a bill before the U.S.
Congress, he paid attention to that particular issue. And if he
received 30 letters, he knew he had to get right on top of the issue and
work diligently on it.
As a former Representative to the Maine Legislature recently said, "I
assure you that a mere few letters from constituents had a profound
effect on my colleagues and me. There is great power in one, two, or
three communications from a legislator's constituents because he or she
is usually hearing only from lobbyists and professional organizations."
If you believe that tax reform for Maine homeowners is urgently needed,
and that you should pay no more than five percent of your income for
property taxes on your home, you can have a great bearing on how your
state legislator votes on this issue. Go to www.voicesforreform.net
<http://www.voicesforreform.net/> for help with contacting your
legislator and the governor. Tell your legislator and the governor to
support the following:
Reform Maine taxes to limit residential property taxes on Maine
households to no more than five percent of household income by balancing
income, sales and property tax revenues, further expanding the Maine
Residents Property Tax Program and realigning and reducing government
spending.
Please join me by taking action on this important matter just as soon as you can. You can help in two ways:
* Please communicate with legislators and the governor by visiting
www.voicesforreform.net <http://www.voicesforreform.net/> to send e-mail messages and then place telephone calls to them.
* Please circulate this e-mail to your own e-mail list of Mainers with the same two requests.
I hope that you will join our grassroots effort to create an expanding flood of communication and action on this important Maine issue.
Sincerely,
Charles Enders
That's kind of creepy...mixing property and income taxes.
Just curious, for the history buffs. What were property taxes like 100+ years ago? Did they tax the value of the house or just your land?
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 23, 2005, 01:39 PM NHFT
Thanks!? :) :) :)
Most of the changes include your exact quotes from earlier posts in the NH Underground forums.? ;)
I'll send it out right now!
Does anyone have the contact info of a reporter at the Keene Sentinel that you can send to me in a private message?? Thanks.
Keene Sentinel....WOW big press release....pfff
Quote from: foreverfree on June 22, 2005, 12:49 PM NHFT
It's nice that you have the time to school your little troll...
Classy.
I've e-mailed or called 30 folks total about this to invite them, folks in-state mostly.
Nice job Mike:
Here's a suggested minor rewrite that builds on your improvements. I changed the headline and Kat the first quote is a little different, will need your approval.
The sentence beginning "Dillon says her protest" is a little different now also
no other changes i recall making
BELOW AWAITING APPROVAL, NOT YET READY FOR RELEASE
Keene mom sending tax money to charity instead of city
Keene, NH, June 23, 2005 - 38-year-old Kat Dillon isn't satisfied she's getting her money's worth from government schools. In fact, she says she isn't getting anything from them at all.
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon. "She's never gone to public school and never will. Government-run schools do nothing that benefits my family, and they have done more harm than good to society. So it's wrong to make me pay for them."
To drive her point home, Dillon will appear at Keene City Hall on June 30 with a check for only 42% of what the city says she and her family owe. She will donate the other 58% to the Liberty Scholarship Fund (LSF), a statewide non-profit that gives scholarships to families which help cover the costs of private schooling or homeschooling. Dillon is Vice Chair of the LSF.
"The part that would have gone to public schools...we're donating it to the Liberty Scholarship Fund. This will help other people leave the public school system."
Dillon says her protest is intended to highlight what she calls the unfairness of New Hampshire's tax system, which forces people to pay for government schools regardless of whether they use or approve of them. She adds, "this would be so much better if they just didn't take my tax money in the first place. Why aren't families like ours exempt from paying the school portion of property taxes?"
After handing over her truncated check, Dillon will lead a protest outside city hall urging other "alternative education" families to "recalculate" their taxes as well. She says she has no idea whether her act of noncompliance will inspire anyone else to do the same but that her family will "do this alone if necessary."
Dillon is no stranger to protest. On June 11 her husband Russell Kanning made national news when he chose arrest over compliance with TSA regulations at Manchester Airport. And it was Dillon who received the infamous nail buff from "Outlaw Manicurist" Mike Fisher. In May, Fisher gave her an unlicensed manicure in front of the state licensing board and also went to jail for it.
The soft-spoken computer programmer says she recognizes her act of civil disobedience will probably trigger retaliation, possibly even the loss of her home. "But," she says, "it's the right thing to do."
Summary:
What: Civil disobedience against the school portion of property taxes.
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why: Because people shouldn't be forced to pay for a system they don't use or agree with.
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon of Keene, supporters from NHfree.com
Contacts: Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049, Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, Backup: Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490
Latest details will appear at NHfree.com
ABOVE AWAITING APPROVAL, NOT YET READY FOR RELEASE
Quote from: Friday on June 24, 2005, 10:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: foreverfree on June 22, 2005, 12:49 PM NHFT
It's nice that you have the time to school your little troll...
Classy.
Have you seen those two!!? There is no way they produced anything BUT a little troll...poor kid
Friday,
Unfortunately, the immorality of single people paying school taxes is probably the most difficult point for us to get across. ?I think it will be much easier if we focus on alternative education families first. ?It's a start, and this issue is obviously just to most people, one of the prerequisites to a successful civil disobedience event.
Possible Signage:
WE HOMESCHOOL.
WE WILL NOT PAY
FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
WHY PAY FOR
EDUCATION
TWICE?
ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION FAMILIES
SHOULD BE EXEMPT
FROM SCHOOL TAXES
HOMESCHOOLERS
SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM
PUBLIC SCHOOL TAXES
WE HOMESCHOOL.
WE SHOULD BE EXEMPT
FROM SCHOOL TAXES
WHY PAY FOR
PUBLIC SCHOOLS
IF YOU HOMESCHOOL?
LEAVE
PUBLIC
SCHOOLS
I DONATED MY
SCHOOL TAXES
TO THE LIBERTY
SCHOLARSHIP FUND
Quote from: foreverfree on June 24, 2005, 11:23 AM NHFT
Have you seen those two!!? There is no way they produced anything BUT a little troll...poor kid
Attacking my child? That's really low. Please refrain from doing this in future.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 24, 2005, 11:06 AM NHFT
"My child is homeschooled," says Dillon.? "She's never gone to public school and never will.? ?Government-run schools do nothing that benefits my family, and they have done more harm than good to society.? So it's wrong to make me pay for them."
That is more principled than the PR that I created. ?:)
I hoped I wasn't watering down the message too much with the moderate "tax exemption" talk.
Quote from: katdillon on June 24, 2005, 11:28 AM NHFT
Quote from: foreverfree on June 24, 2005, 11:23 AM NHFT
Have you seen those two!!?? There is no way they produced anything BUT a little troll...poor kid
Attacking my child?? That's really low.? Please refrain from doing this in future.
Get used to it. That kid is going to get nothing more than BERATED when she hits society....keep her home schooled and in the closet or basement...for our sake and hers
Ignore the troll. >:(
LEAVE
GOVERNMENT
JAILSCHOOLS
IT TAKES
PUBLIC SCHOOLS
TO BANKRUPT
AN ENTIRE STATE
EDUCATION IS
TOO IMPORTANT
TO LEAVE TO
THE GOVERNMENT
EDUCATION IS
TOO IMPORTANT.
HOMESCHOOL
YOUR CHILDREN.
DO YOU TRUST
THE GOVERNMENT
WITH YOUR CHILDREN?
HOMESCHOOLERS:
STOP PAYING FOR
EDUCATION TWICE
GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS:
AN UNNATURAL DISASTER
Kat, we gave your event coverage with our discussion of the Supreme Court decision last night. You can listen here:
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTL062305A.mp3
http://freetalklive.com/files/FTL062305B.mp3
Consider tying your protest into a larger property rights issue, as this is HOT right now.
If you guys like the positive consistent coverage FTL lavishes on the NH Free movement, please support the show, and help us spread into more radio stations and MP3 players! $3 a month is a BIG help: http://amp.freetalklive.com
PS...refrain from saying something!? ?Does it offend you? ?But I am expressing my 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHT. ?Isn't that what you want? ?Isn't that what this group is all about? ?I sense a little hypocrisy!!! ?You get what you wish for! ?Careful what you wish!
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 24, 2005, 11:38 AM NHFT
Ignore the troll.? ?>:(
I don't even read his posts anymore. That's the trick, really. :)
Attacking my kid is my limit, I guess.
Quote from: katdillon on June 24, 2005, 11:44 AM NHFT
Attacking my kid is my limit, I guess.
Can't blame you.
Ack! Heavy moderation!
Education is too important to leave to the government -- I like that more than "up to the government" but that could just be me.
Free speech on a private forum. Silly people. I'm not a fan of heavy moderation, but this forum has a specific purpose. I think you should have deleted all of his posts as well.
That was not heavy moderation at all.? I would be the first to speak up if it were, and I'm sure everyone knows that. ;)
Trolls try to get banned in order to divide the people of a forum against each other.? But because Kat refused to react until backed into a corner, it clarified who was in the wrong in this instance.
It was an innocent ultra-minimal moderation.? She even asked him nicely to stop first.? There was nothing else she could do.? Insulting someone's child is as low as it gets.
There's so much to say about gov schools.? I don't know where to begin!
GOV SCHOOLS
HARM OUR CHILDREN
AND SOCIETY
GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS:
ONE SIZE FITS ALL!
GOV SCHOOLS
TEACH CONFORMITY
GOV SCHOOLS:
"SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP"
GOV SCHOOLS:
ANOTHER METHOD
OF CONTROL
GOV SCHOOLS:
CONCENTRATION CAMPS
FOR CHILDREN
FORCED LEARNING
HARMS CHILDREN
INDEPENDENT LEARNING
REQUIRES FREEDOM
"COMPULSORY LEARNING
NEVER STICKS
TO THE MIND."
-Plato
How about:
EDUCATION
ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL
Gail Lightfoot ran for the California U.S. Senate for the Libertarian Party a couple years back, and her soul focus was government schools, and abolishing the Dept of Education.
She had a really great site up explaining all the problems that government schools cause -- but it's not up anymore.
I found this, though.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040723083113/http://www.lightfootforussenate2004.org/
There are some good ideas in here. Perhaps KAt, could set up a simular site of her own, that's easy to understand.
Tracy
BTW.
Exactly what percentage of your property tax bill, DOES go to the local school district?
Does this cut the Bill in Half, in 2/3rds? in 9/10ths?
What?
I'm sure it very's from town to town -- and even with-in towns, but what would a good estimate be?.
Quote
I tried to get something started a couple years back that was trying to make it so there was a dollar-for-dollar tax credit against the state-wide property tax for ALL donations to any private, religious or homeschool in NH. This might work at a local level too....
BTW, I'll be very glad, if something like that happened -- perhaps as a result of this protesting.
Then, I would take all my property tax money, and donate it to various charities instead. We'd need to make sure that these "charities" are of our own choosing. I don't need government telling me who I can and cannot give my money too.
I'd take a third of my property tax bill that goes to schools and donate it to my local church school. I'd give a third of it to the Liberty Scholarship Fund, and a third to the Christian one. (It's something like "Get the Kids Out.org or something.)
If something like this were possible for everybody do to -- the government schools would completely callapse w/in a year or too.
Tracy
58% in Keene, other towns I've heard can be as high as 75%.
2004 Property Tax Rates (http://www.state.nh.us/revenue/municipalities/ms-new.htm)
(Tax rates are per $1,000 of local valuation. )
TAXPAYERS FOR
SEPARATION OF
SCHOOL AND STATE
Quote from: FTL_Ian on June 24, 2005, 11:38 AM NHFT
Ignore the troll. >:(
Even vulpine trolls.
Not that I believe in reincarnation. ::)
Kevin
Quote from: PattyE on June 24, 2005, 10:39 PM NHFT
2004 Property Tax Rates (http://www.state.nh.us/revenue/municipalities/ms-new.htm)
(Tax rates are per $1,000 of local valuation. )
Schools are 65% of property taxes in Newmarket!!! :o :o :o
My property taxes are $600 per year, and Newmarket's school taxes are 65% of this total.
Therefore, I need to donate about $400 per year to the LSF to follow the principle of Kat's property tax revolt. That's $35 per month.
Consider it done. :) :) :)
Quote from: JonM on June 24, 2005, 01:13 PM NHFT
How about:
EDUCATION
ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL
That's what I meant to say. ;)
Alright, I've extracted the data from that RTF file into a spreadsheet and added the "Total Education Tax Rate" and "Total Education Tax Percentage" so everyone can find their town on the sheet.
I created 2 more spreadsheets with the data sorted in a certain way.
Here are the 3 spreadsheets:
Property Tax Rates (http://www.lsfund.org/files/Property%20Tax%20Rates.xls)
Valuation Sorted Property Tax Rates (http://www.lsfund.org/files/Valuation%20Sorted%20Property%20Tax%20Rates.xls) - Sorted by Town Valuations (a far more meaningful comparison)
Education Sorted Property Tax Rates (http://www.lsfund.org/files/Education%20Sorted%20Property%20Tax%20Rates.xls) - Sorted by % of taxes going to education.
Look Nashua and Manchester on the Valuation-Sorted sheet.? Nashua has a higher property valuation AND lower total taxes because Manchester spends twice as much tax money on non-education items as Manchester.? ?:o
From mikefam on the FSP forums:
hello all, i lived in NH for 5 years now and i already did this act with the town, i with held the school portion and told them so, they placed the tax lien in short order and i took off to court , here is the scam, the town is its own muni. corporation :See http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/III/31/31-1.htm The school department SAU thing is its own separate Muni.corp:See http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XV/194/194-2.htm so now the jist of the situation is that you are being subject to the jurisdiction so to speak of 2 town like entities. the town collecting tax for a separate entity which is totally illegal except that the legislature made special provisions in the law for that to happen : See http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XV/194/194-7.htm AND http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XV/194/194-8.htm
NOW keep in mind that no court (Judges and Layers)in NH want to see this thing come to any court , they already had this thing out about 6 years ago with the Claremont 1 and 2 debacle, Claremont 1 ruled the school tax UNCONSTITUTIONAL and that killed it on the spot but then the state appealed the case on the law that now doesn't exist because its been ruled UNCONSTITUTIONAL it some how gets overturned because they cant fund schools now but are not willing to have no schools or no way to fund them, Claremont 2 orders the legislature to fix the problem and at the same time legislates back the right of the town to now keep collecting the UNCONSTITUTIONAL tax 3 or 4 years later i go to the first hearing file my papers and have my say we get rescheduled for trial and in the meantime the town layer filed a motion to dismiss, I had no idea that would come (because I go Layer less) and i had only 10 days to respond, I dropped the ball and the case was dismissed.I was dejected paid the money over with interest and release fees and got my property back.
Best of luck in your endeavor, if i wasn't selling off property i would join you
Quote from: KBCraig on June 25, 2005, 12:08 AM NHFT
Even vulpine trolls.
Extra credit for the word vulpine. ;)
Is that that anything like a Bull pine ora Lodge pole pine?
I'm not too thrilled with those sign ideas mike, they sound to....strident or something.
We do have some leftover Ax the Tax signs that seem to be coming in handy pretty much every day LOL.
they say
Ax the Tax
NHfree.com
Yeah, some of them are. ;)
But a sign like this really makes people think:
EDUCATION
ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL
Making people think about liberty is the only way we can win it! :)
Some of the spreadsheet numbers don't make sense to me. According to the rates Nashua residents are being taxed $84 million for schools, but the budget in 2005 is "only" $82 million. Is this part of the donor town thing? Keene residents are taxed $25 million, but the budget is nearly twice that.
Anyway,
How about signs with the school budgets on them with the text "Are you getting your money's worth?"
Did Keene pass the bigger education budget? I don't have the right number for the number of students I think, the site I found had 2003 data, so the per student number is probably off a bit.
Keene spends $48,500,000 a year on education
Are you getting your money's worth?
or the per student cost with the same text
Keene spends $12,705 per student a year
Are you getting your money's worth?
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 24, 2005, 11:06 AM NHFT
What: Civil disobedience against the school portion of property taxes.
How: By handing over a check that does not include the "school portion" of the tax, then leading a protest.
Why: Because people shouldn't be forced to pay for a system they don't use or agree with.
Where: Keene City Hall: 3 Washington St. (at the traffic circle), Keene, NH.
When: 10:00 A.M. Thursday, June 30, 2005.
Who: Kat Dillon of Keene, supporters from NHfree.com
Contacts: Kat Dillon (603) 357-2049, Mike Fisher (603) 498-7935, Backup: Dave Ridley (603) 721-1490
Latest details will appear at NHfree.com
Any updates to this? I hope to BYOS (Bring Your Own Sign ;) ), but you might want to have the "Ax the Tax" ones on hand just in case.
Quote from: JonM on June 27, 2005, 10:49 AM NHFT
Some of the spreadsheet numbers don't make sense to me.? According to the rates Nashua residents are being taxed $84 million for schools, but the budget in 2005 is "only" $82 million.? Is this part of the donor town thing?? Keene residents are taxed $25 million, but the budget is nearly twice that.
We have students from other towns who are in our school district......their taxes are added to ours.
The 'donating' is the 'state' school portion of the property tax......Kat and I aren't paying that anymore :)
Kat's protest was apparently discussed on WKBK without any of us hearing it, at some length...don't know when. That's what one of their talk show hosts told me.
Eric Scott, the 10AM guy said he didn't think there was much point to the protest but that he admires Kat's courage and conviction.
I mentioned it again this morning on the air there. However they did not seem interested in me calling them live from the protest.
95% chance I"ll be there, and will have 1 ax the tax sign, one honk if you hate taxes sign
Quote from: DadaOrwell on June 29, 2005, 05:29 PM NHFT
Eric Scott, the 10AM guy said he didn't think there was much point to the protest but that he admires Kat's courage and conviction.
???
uhhhhh.......to keep our money?
I'm going to have a "Why pay for education twice?" sign. :)
Check this out: the Declaration of Educational Independence 8)
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/extras/Declaration.htm
Quote... WE, therefore, the Families of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in GENERAL AGREEMENT, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of Sound, Sane Parental Consciousness, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United People are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT FAMILIES, they have full Power to levy Choice in Family Education, consider the Family's Values and Time Needs to choose the extent of participation in and support of the Public Education System, contract Alliances, establish Family Priorities and Values, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT FAMILIES may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
I made a flyer; any thoughts?
click (http://www.galtsgulch.us/Tax%20Protest%20Flier2.doc)
Got a call a couple hours a go from a lady who saw dave mincin's lte (which listed me as a phone contact). She was happy that this is happenin but can't make it, however she wants to get involved and i have her number.
Friday: The flyer is wonderful! Thanks.
Dada: Cool on the phone call :)
Here's the handout I made to explain what I'm doing. It can be printed two to a sheet of paper.
Problem: Big Government
The US government has grown too big, dangerously so. A recent Supreme Court decision demonstrates this: Kelo vs. New London allows states to seize people's homes and give them to private developers to increase the tax base. Thankfully we live in a state which minimizes such takings. But property owners everywhere cannot feel entirely safe knowing that they can lose their homes at any time.
How did we get to such a state of affairs, so different from what the framers of our great country envisioned? One of the significant perpetrators of big government has been the public schools. The government schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that the government is the answer to all our problems. The coercively-funded government schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that it is OK to take from one person to give to another, supporting such ills as Kelo vs. New London. The coercively-populated public schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that it is OK to take away the freedom of individuals, if it is perceived as being done for the greater good, supporting such abominations as the draft.
I cannot in good conscience continue to pay for a government school system which I believe to be causing so many so much harm, therefore, I am refusing to pay the school portion of my property taxes. That money will be donated to the Liberty Scholarship Fund (lsfund.org) which helps parents who wish to remove their children from the public school system.
--Kathryn Dillon, Keene NH
Nice tie-in Kat. Will you call and tell us how it went tonight? 800-259-9231 If you can do it, 8:05p would be best.
Wow!
Today was an amazing protest with great local support. You would not believe the stories we have to tell from it.
I'll let Kat tell you the story. ;)
Thank you very much for doing this Kat. You are a heroine! :)
Kat Dillon: a TRUE liberty activist! :)
A couple of interesting things happened. Someone tossed a notebook out of their car window to us with the note:
June 30, 2005
Thanks to All of you who try Dilgently to Reduce Unnecessary Taxes.
May all of heaven + earth help Us Di it Right.
Sincerly Yours
(her name and email)
Also I talked to one man for a quite a while who told me how he believed in self-sufficiency and had raised his children without begging for help from the government. He put two of them through college by his wife and him working multiple jobs, and now they've retired early after al their hard work. He certainly believed in the idea that you should pay for what you use, and nothing else.
I had expected to have a lot of people yelling at me over this, but I didn't get anyone doing that. I handed out 100 copies of that statement (above).
Oh yeah, Tom Eaton was hanging out in front of city hall. I talked to him briefly and commended him on the defeat of the minimum wage bill. He didn't comment on the protest, heh. :)
How about the guy who was there with a check for $13,000 plus that he pays twice a year!
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 30, 2005, 07:59 PM NHFT
How about the guy who was there with a check for $13,000 plus that he pays twice a year!
Yeah, that guy seemed mad! :o
This one lady stopped and showed us her letter of protest against the high property taxes in Keene. She said her husband lost his job, the property taxes, which are over $3,000 every 6 months, are $500 more than her mortgage (I guess her home is mostly paid for and her mortgage is small?), and she said (paraphrasing) "The only way we can afford to pay this is by not eating."
I tried to convince her that she could refuse to pay for up to three years before they would try to do anything to her. She said she thought about that but is afraid of what will happen.
When she finally left, she drove by while I was holding a sign and yelled "You're the guy who was arrested for doing a manicure without a license!" ;D
She must be eating ::)
I called free talk live and told them about how kat's protest went today.
So far i've rounded up three good new contacts as a result of this event.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 30, 2005, 07:59 PM NHFT
How about the guy who was there with a check for $13,000 plus that he pays twice a year!
For 26 grand a year they should carry him around piggy back when it snows.
The bastards.
No kidding. I about fainted when he showed me his check.
It really shows the beauty of property taxation for our purposes. The inequity of it so blatantly apparent. No rational explanation can convince this guy that he gets more municipal services than his neighbors.
Cathleen
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 30, 2005, 08:10 PM NHFT
"The only way we can afford to pay this is by not eating."
Mike she could fast with you. ;)
Quote from: Dreepa on July 01, 2005, 10:42 AM NHFT
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on June 30, 2005, 08:10 PM NHFT
"The only way we can afford to pay this is by not eating."
Mike she could fast with you. ;)
LOL!
Unfortunately, she's not willing to say "no" to the government, even when it means she will suffer significantly for it. :-\
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on June 30, 2005, 07:59 PM NHFT
How about the guy who was there with a check for $13,000 plus that he pays twice a year!
Is this for one property?!?!? Or does he own more than one?
My guess is he, probably, has been investing in houses for years, dealing with the repairs, plowing, shoveling, and trying to collect the rents, and, the value went up to close to a million thru inflation.
Or, maybe, his parents died and left him a business block in town ;D
I just want to say that I am proud of you, Kat and Russell, for risking your well-being to be some of the very few people in this world saying NO to government. By your examples, you are leading others to find the spirit of freedom within themselves.
Egocentricity is the process of wanting something other than what is.
Egocentricity means there is an "I" who is separate from everything
else and doesn't like it; one thing is happening, but I want a
different thing to be happening. Egocentricity is that constant
concern with how I feel, what I think, what I'm doing, what I want -
looking at what is and seeing it as inadequate.
My identity is maintained by the struggle of wanting something
other than what is; that is how I continue to know myself.
This practice involves finding a willingness to suffer in order
to end our suffering. Instead of spending our time trying to avoid
suffering, we just find the willingness to go directly into it.
Whenever anything causes us to suffer, we can know two things:
suffering is the same as egocentricity, and when it arises, that
is our best opportunity to end suffering. As we open to our
suffering, as we embrace it, as we accept it, our relationship to
it changes. It is no longer something horrible, something to escape
from. Suffering becomes just another opportunity, another chance for
freedom.
Please find out about that for yourself.
~From "Trying to be Human" Cheri Huber, Ed. Sara Jenkins
"The moment the slave resolves that he will no longer be a slave, his fetters fall. He frees himself and shows the way to others. Freedom and slavery are mental states. Therefore, the first thing is to say to yourself; 'I shall no longer accept the role of a slave. I shall not obey orders as such, but shall disobey them when they are in conflict with my conscience.'"
"The so-called master may lash you and try to force you to serve him. You will say; 'No, I will not serve you for your money or under a threat.' This may mean suffering. Your readiness to suffer will light the torch of freedom which can never be put out."
-Gandhi
I'm going to send that first quote to a lady on the Keene City Council. One of my buddies in TX wrote to the council, and got this response:
I understand your logic, but I sure don't agree with it! I have no children in the schools....can I get a break on my taxes, too? And, on the short street where I live, no one in any of the 7 homes has children in the schools. Do they get a break? And my friends? So....none of us pay school taxes and what happens to the schools? They go down in quality.
I don't use the municipals pools, basketball courts, playgrounds or tennis courts. Can I deduct that cost from my taxes as well? There are many roads I don't drive on or sidewalks I don't use....more savings for me? I haven't had a fire truck at my house in 35 years......should I refuse to pay taxes on that service? I don't have a plane and I don't use the airport. More savings for me!!!!!
As you can see, I could go on forever. When you live in a country (or state) I feel it means you agree to live by the rules adopted by the majority of the people who live there. If you disagree with those rules, elect different publc officials...or do as many of our ancestors did....find a new land and start your own country.
That sounds "smart a--" and I don't mean to, I just couldn't find another way to put my feelings. I really do appreciate hearing from you and (maybe) I understand what you're saying....but I don't agree with it! If everyone stopped paying for municipal services they don't use......the result would be either no services for those who need them or services so expensive no one (even those who need them) could afford them.
Thanks for writing,
Cynthia Georgina
Ward 5 Councilor
Quote from: katdillon on July 02, 2005, 10:47 AM NHFT
I'm going to send that first quote to a lady on the Keene City Council. One of my buddies in TX wrote to the council, and got this response:
I understand your logic, but I sure don't agree with it! I have no children in the schools....can I get a break on my taxes, too? And, on the short street where I live, no one in any of the 7 homes has children in the schools. Do they get a break? And my friends? So....none of us pay school taxes and what happens to the schools? They go down in quality.
I don't use the municipals pools, basketball courts, playgrounds or tennis courts. Can I deduct that cost from my taxes as well? There are many roads I don't drive on or sidewalks I don't use....more savings for me? I haven't had a fire truck at my house in 35 years......should I refuse to pay taxes on that service? I don't have a plane and I don't use the airport. More savings for me!!!!!
As you can see, I could go on forever. When you live in a country (or state) I feel it means you agree to live by the rules adopted by the majority of the people who live there. If you disagree with those rules, elect different publc officials...or do as many of our ancestors did....find a new land and start your own country.
That sounds "smart a--" and I don't mean to, I just couldn't find another way to put my feelings. I really do appreciate hearing from you and (maybe) I understand what you're saying....but I don't agree with it! If everyone stopped paying for municipal services they don't use......the result would be either no services for those who need them or services so expensive no one (even those who need them) could afford them.
Thanks for writing,
Cynthia Georgina
Ward 5 Councilor
When someone runs against her, use her words above... The funny things is that she's missing the point completely: she WOULD be able to afford more things... but she's convinced that she _must_ provide services for free to others.
Quote from: katdillon on June 30, 2005, 06:11 PM NHFT
Oh yeah, Tom Eaton was hanging out in front of city hall.? I talked to him briefly and commended him on the defeat of the minimum wage bill.? He didn't comment on the protest, heh.? :)
I talked to him also and thanked him for fighting the cigarrette tax.
http://www.unionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=57165
Man faces new trespass charge in property flap
By HUNTER McGEE
Regional Correspondent
LONDONDERRY ? A man was charged Wednesday with trespassing onto the Grenier Field Road property he owned but was evicted from two years ago for failing to pay $100,000 in property taxes.
Robert O. Saulnier was told earlier in the day by Londonderry police officers that if he was found to be on the property at 22 Grenier Field Road he would be charged with trespass, according to a police affidavit.
Officers responded to the property for a report of criminal trespass and found Saulnier there. He was asked to leave and refused, allegedly saying, "This is what I have to do," the affidavit said.
Saulnier was arrested and charged with criminal trespassing. Bail was set at $1,000 cash by bail commissioner Dennis Ryan. He was not being held at the Rockingham County House of Corrections as of last night, a jail official said.
The Grenier Field Road property is a site where the town is considering building one of two fire stations. It lies near Federal Express.
Saulnier was arrested on July 18, 2002, for trespassing on the property abutting his owned by Atom Construction, police records said.
He was also arrested in October 2003 for cutting a lock and trespassing on his former Grenier Field Road property, police records said. Saulnier said he believed the property still belonged to him and he didn't have anywhere else to go. He was held without bail for 17 days on the two misdemeanor charges before he was released in an agreement where he pled no contest.
The dispute between the town and Saulnier dates back at least 15 years, when local officials said Saulnier didn't pay his property taxes for his residence at 22 Grenier Field Road.
After taking the deed to his property in 1999, town officials said they gave Saulnier more than four years to set up a payment plan to keep his property, but he never made any payments.
Saulnier disagrees. Last year, he said he fell behind in his taxes when his mortgage company more than doubled his escrow payments. He said the town never offered him a payment plan so he tried to make partial payments on his own.
The town denies he ever made partial payments or even one penny in payments.
Saulnier said the town, after deeding itself the property, didn't serve proper notice until three years later in April 2002, when he said he received a notice saying he owed $96,000 to the town.
Quote from: katdillon on July 02, 2005, 10:47 AM NHFT
I'm going to send that first quote to a lady on the Keene City Council. One of my buddies in TX wrote to the council, and got this response:
I understand your logic, but I sure don't agree with it! I have no children in the schools....can I get a break on my taxes, too? And, on the short street where I live, no one in any of the 7 homes has children in the schools. Do they get a break? And my friends? So....none of us pay school taxes and what happens to the schools? They go down in quality.
I don't use the municipals pools, basketball courts, playgrounds or tennis courts. Can I deduct that cost from my taxes as well? There are many roads I don't drive on or sidewalks I don't use....more savings for me? I haven't had a fire truck at my house in 35 years......should I refuse to pay taxes on that service? I don't have a plane and I don't use the airport. More savings for me!!!!!
Sounds good to me :)
Free market competition/cooporation can produce ALL these things, more efficiently then government.
Tracy
Can somebody come to this guys aid, and help defend him?
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 02, 2005, 05:33 PM NHFT
Can somebody come to this guys aid, and help defend him?
Tracy
Anyone know how to contact him? Att.com directory has 4 listings for Robert Saulnier in NH; 2 are the same number at different addresses in Pembroke; 1 is in Salem, and the last is "Robert E." in East Hampstead, but that's not the same middle initial.
Kevin
We MUST find this guy! :o
We start to watch for people who are victimized by the government and we help them, just like Myrtle.
This is how it begins.
Didn't Ed Naile mention him in one of his letters that Dave M posted?
Arright i've now posted an update letting folks know what happened at kat's protest on the 30th. Posted it to the main NH forums and the 10 major national forums I frequent.
http://www.londonderrydidthis.com
My Story
Because of an escrow problem, I fell behind on my property taxes. The town started tax liens in the early 1990s. Because of the escrow money that would not be released by N.F.S. bank, I fell behind each year after these tax liens.
I would go to the town hall with a bank check in-hand for the amount of one year's property taxes. The Town manager at the time was Richard Plante. He would look at the check and say, "It's not enough," and then hand it back to me. In all, over the years, I tried to give the town approximately $28,000 in property tax money.
As I found out later, the town is bound by state law R.S.A. 80:71 regarding partial payments. It says that the town shall take partial payments and apply it to towards the outstanding tax debt. This is the first law among many that the Town has violated, without any regard to State or Federal regulations pertaining to tax deeding.
Each year at tax time they would send me a letter telling me that they were going to deed the property to themselves by a certain date if I didn't pay the whole tax bill. Every year I got the same typed letter, only with a different deeding date. On April 8, 1999 I got a letter just like I had been getting over these years, again I went to the town and tried to give them a bank check for $4,406.00, and they again said no.
Three years went by, and on April 8, 2002 I received a letter from the town telling me that they had deeded my property to themselves in 1999, and that if I came up with $96,000 within 30 days I could have the deed back. This $96,000 sum was grossly inflated due to penalty charges and the 18% interest rate applied to the debt. Had the Town accepted the partial payments that I attempted to give, far less money would have been owed on the property, and it never would have come to this..
Over that 30 day period I tried everything to make some kind of a arrangement with these property taxes. My contacts were, at that point, a new town manager, Dave Caron, and the finance director Susan Hickey. "Absolutely no deals," the town manager told me he wanted the property.
As I started looking through relevant state statutes applying to legal tax deeding, I soon found out that the town the court and its agents managed to break nearly every law in the book to literally steal this property.
Here is a partial list of laws and N.H. RSAs that these so-called "officers of the court" have (so far) gotten away with breaking:
* RSA 80:71 (Regarding their obligation to accept partial payments)
* RSA 80:21 (Regarding mandatory notice of sale)
* RSA 80:29 (Regarding conduct of sale)
* RSA 80:38 (Regarding tax deeding)
* RSA 80:89 (Regarding right to re-purchase)
The Town of Londonderry is completely out of control. Something has to stop the tyranny in this County.
This guy is no stranger to fighting City Hall.
Kevin
Article in .pdf, covering some history of this event:
http://www.londonderrydidthis.com/articles.pdf
Kevin
Wow... this violence must end.
I uploaded a few photos of the property tax revolt (the name of the Gallery is "Property Tax Revolt"). I didn't bother to cut them down in size; let me know if that's a problem.
Quote from: Friday on July 03, 2005, 09:00 AM NHFT
I uploaded a few photos of the property tax revolt (the name of the Gallery is "Property Tax Revolt").? I didn't bother to cut them down in size; let me know if that's a problem.
8)
Maybe we could get some of our News Articals and things in Londonderry, to try and ferrit this guy out.
Tracy
Robert Saulnier had a junk yard. As I recall the Londonderry Town Council passed an ordinance regarding junk yards. Everytime anyone with a junk yard comes up for review they run them through the ringer. It's clear the town council wants all of them out of business.
Did the 13,000 check guy want his address and phone number posted? Probably ought to edit them out of the photo in the gallery.
He wanted it all.....we kept asking him.
That is how much he hates the tax >:(
The Sentinel published this as a letter to the editor yesterday.
Quote from: katdillon on June 30, 2005, 03:33 AM NHFT
The US government has grown too big, dangerously so. A recent Supreme Court decision demonstrates this: Kelo vs. New London allows states to seize people's homes and give them to private developers to increase the tax base. Thankfully we live in a state which minimizes such takings. But property owners everywhere cannot feel entirely safe knowing that they can lose their homes at any time.
How did we get to such a state of affairs, so different from what the framers of our great country envisioned? One of the significant perpetrators of big government has been the public schools. The government schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that the government is the answer to all our problems. The coercively-funded government schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that it is OK to take from one person to give to another, supporting such ills as Kelo vs. New London. The coercively-populated public schools, by their very nature, cannot help but teach that it is OK to take away the freedom of individuals, if it is perceived as being done for the greater good, supporting such abominations as the draft.
I cannot in good conscience continue to pay for a government school system which I believe to be causing so many so much harm, therefore, I am refusing to pay the school portion of my property taxes. That money will be donated to the Liberty Scholarship Fund (lsfund.org) which helps parents who wish to remove their children from the public school system.
--Kathryn Dillon, Keene NH
Great letter, Kat.
Wow! :o
That should have been our original press release! :)
That's what I was handing out on the 30th, in front of city hall.
I don't get it.
If you bring in a wheel barrow of pennies to town hall, that just costs the town more to count the money.? Costs go up and then taxes go up.? Sounds counterproductive to me. ???
ALso:
If you don't pay your bill, then your bill is spread across the rest of the taxpayers to pick up the slack.? Seems like a good way to piss off the community at you rather that energizing them.
Why not bring more cost effective private solutions to the public to save money?
I don't like the government schools ... so I am not paying for them. If other people want to support them ... then that is their choice. :)
Quote from: EZPass on July 22, 2005, 12:00 PM NHFT
I don't get it.
If you bring in a wheel barrow of pennies to town hall, that just costs the town more to count the money.? Costs go up and then taxes go up.? Sounds counterproductive to me. ???
That is not my plan 8)
Quote from: EZPass on July 22, 2005, 12:00 PM NHFTWhy not bring more cost effective private solutions to the public to save money?
They are already available.....why should I keep paying into a system I don't agree with, while the rest of you figure it out?
QQQI don't like the government schools ... so I am not paying for them. If other people want to support them ... then that is their choice.QQQ
is it only school that this logic applies?
If I don't like the fire dept can I not pay that portion of the taxes? After all, what's the risk my kids might get really hurt, choke on a gumball, or god forbid have a fire that needs to be put out? And I as look my child in her eyes and what her face turn purple from lack of oxygen, I'll just have to remind myself that I opted out of the fire/rescue services in town and resist the temptation to try to get her life saved.
Do you really think we can attract more people with this goofy logic?
I would prefer a volunteer fire department .... it could get donations or have customers 8)
Over 95% of fire departments in America are volunteer.
Quote from: FTL_Ian on July 22, 2005, 04:34 PM NHFT
Over 95% of fire departments in America are volunteer.
In CA they all make big bucks :'(
Quote from: EZPass on July 22, 2005, 02:08 PM NHFT
QQQI don't like the government schools ... so I am not paying for them. If other people want to support them ... then that is their choice.QQQ
is it only school that this logic applies?
If I don't like the fire dept can I not pay that portion of the taxes?? After all, what's the risk my kids might get really hurt, choke on a gumball, or god forbid have a fire that needs to be put out?? And I as look my child in her eyes and what her face turn purple from lack of oxygen, I'll just have to remind myself that I opted out of the fire/rescue services in town and resist the temptation to try to get her life saved.
Do you really think we can attract more people with this goofy logic?
Not with your logic.
I think we need the government to protect us from gumballs.
I am working on a plan to regulate gumball machines.
Yeah and them deadly ever loving ever lasting Gobstoppers.
Now don't attack the gobstoppers. Those gobs must be stopped.
Quote from: katdillon on July 22, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think we need the government to protect us from gumballs.
Just curious - do you have homeowners insurance on your house?
If the answer is YES, then using this logic, you should cancel it. ?It would be unjust to make all the other policy holders pay to rebuild your house if it was damaged in a fire. ?Unless of course the reason is it's OK ?because purchase of the policy was possibly voluntary. ? ::)
Stop paying taxes for salting and plowing. I have a 4 weel drive pick up and goes great in deep snow. Accept the risk in the winter. Don't need no overpaid snow plow drivers and trucks.
Quote from: EZPass on July 22, 2005, 07:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on July 22, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think we need the government to protect us from gumballs.
Just curious - do you have homeowners insurance on your house?
If the answer is YES, then using this logic, you should cancel it. ?It would be unjust to make all the other policy holders pay to rebuild your house if it was damaged in a fire. ?Unless of course the reason is it's OK ?because purchase of the policy was possibly voluntary. ? ::)
Yes, of course it's voluntary.
Quote from: free55 on July 22, 2005, 08:24 PM NHFT
Stop paying taxes for salting and plowing.? I have a 4 weel drive pick up and goes great in deep snow.? Accept the risk in the winter.? Don't need no overpaid snow plow drivers and trucks.
I lived in a town with so many potholes ... we threatened this 8)
EZPass,
I can see you still believe that government is the answer. I think I can speak for most of us here and say we think government IS the problem, Not the answer.
Quote from: EZPass on July 22, 2005, 07:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on July 22, 2005, 04:52 PM NHFT
I think we need the government to protect us from gumballs.
Just curious - do you have homeowners insurance on your house?
If the answer is YES, then using this logic, you should cancel it. It would be unjust to make all the other policy holders pay to rebuild your house if it was damaged in a fire. Unless of course the reason is it's OK because purchase of the policy was possibly voluntary. ::)
Theirs a difference between being in a system in which people volentarily choose the spread risk around, and being forced to at gun-point.
There's also a difference in that government schools are a monopoly and monopolies are inherently ineficient, wheere-as insurence companies compete with other insurence companies.
There's also the evil stuff they teach in government schools.
Tracy
Quote from: free55 on July 22, 2005, 08:24 PM NHFT
Stop paying taxes for salting and plowing. I have a 4 weel drive pick up and goes great in deep snow. Accept the risk in the winter. Don't need no overpaid snow plow drivers and trucks.
You know I have a good example of that here in Sioux Falls.
Many times, after the snow-plows go through, you can see businesses and private individuals, getting out their cats, plows attachedto the front of their trucks, and snow-blowers, and cleaning up the mess the snow-plows left behind. And cleaning away the snow out-side the fog-line the snow-plows missed.
I always think that These people are willing to pay for snow-removal twice. Once with their taxes, and then again through volentary means to finish and many times fix the job.
Certainly, people would be willing to pay for snow removal volentarily if government didn't do it, and they got to keep their own money.
Tracy
Quote from: AlanM on July 22, 2005, 10:09 PM NHFT
EZPass,
I can see you still believe that government is the answer. I think I can speak for most of us here and say we think government IS the problem, Not the answer.
No.? Of course not.? However, like insurance principles which spread risk to many in order to protect the individual, in many cases public solutions may do the same thing.? In the case of schools, when I bring my child with severe learning disabilities to the schools, they can afford to provide the thousands of dollars of services to educate her while I couldn't possibily begin to provide in a home school environment.? That risk of having a "special" child is spread over the community.
The government should not be in the business of many things private suppliers can and should do better.? Volunteerism is also a way to keep down government costs, too.
Re insurance:? Most lenders do not allow insurance to be voluntary.? You either pay or don't get the financing.
Quote from: katdillon on April 26, 2005, 02:54 PM NHFT
I don't have a loan.
So what do you say to the less fortunate/wealthy that must take out a loan? ???
QuoteMost lenders do not allow insurance to be voluntary. You either pay or don't get the financing.
But that's still volentary though. You just don't get the loan, if you don't have an insurence company the bank aproves. That's not force. That's not guns pointed at your head forcing you to give them money. All the bank can do, is not give you the loan if you don't have insurence. And there are typically multiple insurence companies that you can choose from, instead of one government monopoly.
Tracy
Quote from: EZPass on July 23, 2005, 07:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on July 22, 2005, 10:09 PM NHFT
EZPass,
I can see you still believe that government is the answer. I think I can speak for most of us here and say we think government IS the problem, Not the answer.
No.? Of course not.? However, like insurance principles which spread risk to many in order to protect the individual, in many cases public solutions may do the same thing.? In the case of schools, when I bring my child with severe learning disabilities to the schools, they can afford to provide the thousands of dollars of services to educate her while I couldn't possibily begin to provide in a home school environment.? That risk of having a "special" child is spread over the community.
The government should not be in the business of many things private suppliers can and should do better.? Volunteerism is also a way to keep down government costs, too.
Re insurance:? Most lenders do not allow insurance to be voluntary.? You either pay or don't get the financing.
I say the government should not be in the business of ANYTHING the private sector can do, which is almost everything.
"That risk of having a "special" child is spread over the community."
So you feel it is ethically just to force someone else to pay for YOUR childs education. When you conceived that child, you took on the responsibilty for that childs care and up-bringing. I did not force you to have the child, but you want to force me to pay its way. Sorry. Your responsibility, not mine. If you were to ask me for some help I would most likely give you assistance, but do not use a gun at my head to FORCE me to pay.
Your username says a lot about your expectations.
Quote from: AlanM on July 23, 2005, 08:08 PM NHFT
Quote from: EZPass on July 23, 2005, 07:33 PM NHFT
Quote from: AlanM on July 22, 2005, 10:09 PM NHFT
I did not force you to have the child, but you want to force me to pay its way. Sorry. Your responsibility, not mine. If you were to ask me for some help I would most likely give you assistance, but do not use a gun at my head to FORCE me to pay.
I didn't force you to have a fire in your house that will be put out with the assistance of community resources.? OK to say
your responsibility?? Let it burn?
BTW, where does this selfish attitude of "I've got mine and to hell with everyone else" come from?? I would suspect most of these people don't volunteer in their community, were fortunate enough to have perfect kids, could care less about others, and are fairly well off.
And, I've seen several posts referring to guns at people's heads.? Far too much imagery of guns at heads.? Is this a Timothy McVae cheerleading site?
I suspect you would be the first one down at town hall demanding that the supermarket that decided to build a store adjacent to your house stop construction because of a land ordinance that's been violated.? You hate everything about the government until such time as you decide you need it.? How convenient.
I believe government should be small and efficient and not waste money.? We should be free from oppressive regimes that don't allow me(us) to decide our own fate.? However I'm not an anarchist that wants to retreat to the dark ages when we lived in forts to fight the savages who wanted to steal our women and food.
Your username says a lot about your expectations.
Quote
So I guess you're a
tokens guy.... ;D
QuoteI didn't force you to have a fire in your house that will be put out with the assistance of community resources. OK to say your responsibility? Let it burn?
Most communities in this country have volunteer firefighters. I would DONATE to a local volunteer fire dept. Or it could be privatized. Pay or it burns.
QuoteBTW, where does this selfish attitude of "I've got mine and to hell with everyone else" come from? I would suspect most of these people don't volunteer in their community, were fortunate enough to have perfect kids, could care less about others, and are fairly well off.
You would suspect wrong. I have volunteered in community organizations for decades. There is no such thing as a perfect kid, and I am not well off financially. I earn my way and expect others to do the same.
QuoteAnd, I've seen several posts referring to guns at people's heads. Far too much imagery of guns at heads. Is this a Timothy McVae cheerleading site?
You are the one who wants to put a gun at my head to pay for YOUR projects, so I guess you are the McVeigh type.
QuoteI suspect you would be the first one down at town hall demanding that the supermarket that decided to build a store adjacent to your house stop construction because of a land ordinance that's been violated. You hate everything about the government until such time as you decide you need it. How convenient.
You are doing a lot of false suspecting. Never have asked the town government for anything.
QuoteI believe government should be small and efficient and not waste money. We should be free from oppressive regimes that don't allow me(us) to decide our own fate.
So do I. I mean it though.
QuoteHowever I'm not an anarchist that wants to retreat to the dark ages when we lived in forts to fight the savages who wanted to steal our women and food.
I want what our Revolutionary Forefathers had. Freedom.
QuoteQuoteI did not force you to have the child, but you want to force me to pay its way. Sorry. Your responsibility, not mine. If you were to ask me for some help I would most likely give you assistance, but do not use a gun at my head to FORCE me to pay.
I didn't force you to have a fire in your house that will be put out with the assistance of community resources. OK to say your responsibility? Let it burn?
There are plenty of other examples as well where 'society' has taken upon itself a role to intervene, whether or not someone wants that intervention. Of course few people would complain about having a fire put out at their home, and likely they would even be willing to pay for the costs of this, even as a private non-government service, if such an event occured but that doesn't justify forcing someone to accept this service whether or not they desired it (unless maybe there are threats to other homes from this fire). So though it's not likely likely anyone would deny having a fire put out at their home, and I personally think it's fine seeing community funded fire services, the principle that this should still be done with regard to the desires of the owner is the same. It not hard to imagine the owner finding some alternative method of dealing with such fire hazards and not wanting to additionally pay for a seperate fire service they view as redundant or inefficient.
As another example, there are many laws that regard health risks as well, and these tend to attempt to limit health risks for inidividuals (at least we assume that's the intent), but many times a person may not desire to limit their health risks for various reasons (do we make rock-climbing illegal because our chariable nature would require us to help if that person were injured, and we feel the expenses would be too large?), though because society has also taken upon itself the duty to impose health services despite individual desires, the freedom to make individual decisions for ones health is limited as well.
In China, government has assumed a massive role in protecting and providing for the populace. Ever citizen is a potential public liability under this framework and the Chinese government must determine the whos and hows of sustaining the populace. The responsibility has been taken out of the hands of individuals and placed into the realm of society. Now, guess who determines whether or not there are enough public resources to allow someone to have a child or nor in China? Correct, the government/society. In the attempt to provide for everyone, by removing this responsibility, the freedom to control this is lost as well.
The cost of Individual freedom is individual responsibility and control. The more responsibility given to society to assure our well being, the less freedom we each have in determining this for ourselves. You can take any government function and see that this applies, from healthcare to education, even to military defense. Some things might be considered more critical that others for government to provide (though I agree with many people that these are actually a lot fewer than most people typically have come to believe).
QuoteAnd, I've seen several posts referring to guns at people's heads. Far too much imagery of guns at heads. Is this a Timothy McVae cheerleading site?
What he's referring to is the fact that the primary difference between private and government institutions is the threat of force. Instead of trading value for value, the currency is lack of harm (people are motivated not by benefit as much as pain avoidance when interacting with government). When you go to McDonalds, they can't use a police officer or S.W.A.T. team to influence whether or not, or what you buy. They are limited to friendly smiles, the apparent desirability of their product and (possibly misleading) advertising whereas, for example, the DMV doesn't really need to provide much value to "costumers" because you have little choice in the matter if you need to use a vehicle. Me and you can't pass a law saying people must use our services on penalty of a fine or potentially a prison sentence (or I guess even pain of death if someone were to actually resist), whereas "The People" (as represented by a few individuals)
can do this. We say they are accountable in that we don't have to vote for them next election cycle but most people have got to admit the difficulties in actually reforming things in reality. Between media and lack of an informed citizenry, most elections come down to whether or not someone is relected or the media favorite is swapped in.
I don't really have a problem with democracy and elected representatives but, at least personally, it appears that with the continued erosion of individual rights, more and more of minorities (I'm primarily thinking of ideological minorities, as opposed to the typical stereotyped view of minorities) are getting trampled on, and as politics continue to become more centralized in Washington, D.C. there's less and less space to support diversity in the U.S. and you can see the conflict in a lot of the conflicts in current politics. Sure, maybe most people like Social Security, but of course some people feel it's a waste of their resources and provides little certainty of seeing any real returns on the investment. Ok, let's ignore those people because we can convince ourselves we're helping them even though they may not realize it. But now, add education. Sure, some people will feel their children are being ingrained in a system that doesn't support their beliefs, but they're a minority and don't realize their ignorance, correct? But now lets add in our, despite claims of it being voluntary, it's involuntary to taxpayers at a minimum, foreign military campaigns. Some people feel as though they are being forced to support a war that's immoral in their eyes. When we take it upon ourselves to save someone soul, or declare such attempt illegal, either way, we pile up another group of disgruntled people etc., and we can keep going and going and going .... Freedom is gained by allowing individuals options. Things won't get better until alternatives to some of the government monopolies are allowed. Competition in the market place of ideas as well as economically, whether it be from allowing internal private competition to these, or whether it comes in the form external forces like the economic growth in foreign countries remains the best way to assure we don't get stuck in a dead end path socially. Do we force everyone into centralized retirement planning via. Social Security and laws enforced "at gunpoint" or do we allow people the option to determine for themselves what their priorities are ... some people may discount the value of currencies based upon things with some measure of more tangible value but compare what happened to paper dollars (or nowadays, bits in a computer) versus gold. If government had not forcibly denied (or stolen, depending on your view) precious metals as our main form of currency, Social Security would be much less of an issue. There has been a strong devaluation of the dollar, since its inception, versus real goods, like property or gold etc. Our educational system keeps falling behind other nations, why? Because competing forms have been forcibly restricted. You might say that anyone is free to open a private school or homeschool, but consider that our taxes, including the profits earned by a private school pay to subsidize public education, so if you send your children to a private school, you're still paying for the public school. If private schools had that advantage, public schools would have long since disappeared. I'm not against large institutions or businesses, but I believe these markets should be free and based upon choices made by individuals, not society. We could all vote on an operating system for computers as well, I don't have anything against Microsoft, but there's no reason to deny people from using Linux instead, if they feel it serves them better. We could argue that for the sake of compatibility and protection against viruses (and of course terrorist threats ;D), it's best to standardize everyones operating system but on the other hand, is it really anyones business, or would it just piss a lot of people off (and likely serve counterproductive to the intent anyway)?
The problem is that as "We the People" take it upon ourselves to do more and more, the implicit threat of force used against an ever growing number of minorities creates more and more conflict and it's not getting any better, and it won't until the mindset that everyone has a right, if not obligation, to get involved in the lives of others, whether
or not there's any real need to do so, begins to change.
We should get government back to just keeping the peace (which of course might include defending our borders). It used to be police officers were called peace officers. That seems like it's not a bad direction to head.
Steve: I must say, you make some excellent points. As I learn more about the freedom movement in NH, I see some very reasonable people on this site and others working to increase their personal freedoms. But, I also see some threads that are disturbing/extremist that could be quite harmful/hurtful to individuals and their personal freedom. Some of the discussions are too one-sided without intellectual rigor/arguement to vet the various thoughts and ideas. Monolithic speak can be as danderous as the ideas being professed. The arguements and theories and strategies can become flabby when open discussion doesn't occur or even worse is ridiculed/discouraged. I guess that's true on most websites, tho. :-\
Your discussion was excellent and thoughtful.
Quote from: EZPass on July 25, 2005, 10:26 AM NHFT
Steve: I must say, you make some excellent points. As I learn more about the freedom movement in NH, I see some very reasonable people on this site and others working to increase their personal freedoms. But, I also see some threads that are disturbing/extremist that could be quite harmful/hurtful to individuals and their personal freedom. Some of the discussions are too one-sided without intellectual rigor/arguement to vet the various thoughts and ideas. Monolithic speak can be as danderous as the ideas being professed. The arguements and theories and strategies can become flabby when open discussion doesn't occur or even worse is ridiculed/discouraged. I guess that's true on most websites, tho. :-\
Your discussion was excellent and thoughtful.
Yes, I agree that sometimes the conversations can feel like jumping into the middle of a 6 month debate without any training ;) I'm guilty of getting into some rather heated debates as well. This website is actually pretty good, in general though, about drifting off less on philosophical stuff and working on solving real issues in N.H. That's one thing I really like about this site (congrats guys!).
Anyway, I think after following some of the threads for a bit you'll see that though some of the views sound extreme, it's oftentimes just overstating something or someone has a particular issue that they feel adamant about. I wouldn't sweat it. I think you'll see that mostly people are just trying to get across their philosophy and you'll find that, at least when it comes to individuals retaining or reclaiming greater freedom, the large majority of disagreements aren't over the problem but what specific solutions address it best. I've personally come to think the best way to deal with most the disputes is to shoot for stronger private property rights and the ability for groups of people with dissenting views of the specific do what they want ... on their own property. Basically, the "man is a king of his own castle" philosophy applied on small scales. If it's not possible to see this on the individual level, at least move much of the areas of more centralized government control down to a more local level where individuals can have greater local control of these issues - there are a lot of advantages, including peacekeeping, to having more diverse local communities instead of continually pushing more and more legislation up to the federal level, which tends to always leave yet another minority view in the cold politically. I think centralization keeps squeezing everyone into an ever decreasing number of options with less diversity possible and is probably one of the main sources of political conflict in the U.S. nowdays ... we've lost the social ability to live and let live by expecting everyone to conform to single standards by moving toward a single viewpoint selected by democracy and "We the People", instead of remaining focused on protecting individual rights against majority abuse (I'm talking more along the lines of ideological minorities than the typical physical minority stereotypes). Everytime a new law is added at the state or federal level, it removes one more issue from being a local/individual option and makes everyone put chains on everyone else. We need to get back to the basics of what government was created for and concentrate it on that, again, so it can at least do one job adequately instead of doing too many things poorly.
I tend to talk and ramble a lot but anyway, ignore me ;), there are a lot of good peeps here doing good things in New Hampshire. (I'm in California ... but still plan on checking out things in New Hampshire ... though I probably sound like a broken record by now ;D)
Anyway, have fun.
Oh, and thank you for the compliments too. Just give it time and I'll be meandering off on some argument eventually though.
BTW, you might also want to check out the Free State Project website, if you haven't. I don't know whether or not you live in New Hampshire but if you don't try this too: www.freestateproject.com
Quote from: EZPass on July 25, 2005, 07:17 AM NHFT
I didn't force you to have a fire in your house that will be put out with the assistance of community resources. OK to say your responsibility? Let it burn?
You have completely ignore the point that insurence is Volentary. People volentarily choose to have insurence, and volentarily choose to spread the risk around. You can't compair volentary insurence with coersive government. They're two completely different things.
QuoteBTW, where does this selfish attitude of "I've got mine and to hell with everyone else" come from?
Anyone every notice, that the ones that call other's selfish, and actually the selfish ones? It's like a little 2 year old demanding that their parent "share" with them. i'm sorry. You're the one who thinks he's entitled to property that he did not earn, buy, or otherwise volentarily aquire.
QuoteAnd, I've seen several posts referring to guns at people's heads. Far too much imagery of guns at heads. Is this a Timothy McVae cheerleading site?
Every government law, tax and regulation, is backed by the force. If you don't pay your protection money to the local maffia, they come, barge into your home, nad eventually through you out of your own home. If you resist and try to defend your property, they might shoot you.
If you don't pay your insurence company. All they do is cancle your policy.
Tracy
SteveA, are you you Steve from the FSP forums?
TRacy
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 25, 2005, 06:32 PM NHFT
SteveA, are you you Steve from the FSP forums?
TRacy
Yeppers. "SteveA" on the FSP board to be more precise. I don't post here too often because I don't want to distract you guys with philosophical stuff as much. I don't want to stand in the way of progress, as they say :).
Quote from: SteveA on July 25, 2005, 07:31 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 25, 2005, 06:32 PM NHFT
SteveA, are you you Steve from the FSP forums?
TRacy
Yeppers.? "SteveA" on the FSP board to be more precise.? I don't post here too often because I don't want to distract you guys with philosophical stuff as much.? I don't want to stand in the way of progress, as they say :).
No need to restrain yourself SteveA. I, for one, always enjoy your posts. 8)
Most of the posters here are "already there" regarding liberty and don't need the long version explanation. We can toss out a seemingly dangerous proposition and not ruffle a feather among the regulars. It hasn't really been designed as a site to coax along more casual visitors.
I may think taxation is theft but I might still vote for a reduction of a few percentage points in tax rate. We can be very practical without giving up our ideals. I find it very refreshing to not have to keep all comments palatable to the general public.
Cathleen
Quote from: cathleeninnh on August 03, 2005, 03:12 PM NHFTWe can toss out a seemingly dangerous proposition and not ruffle a feather among the regulars. It hasn't really been designed as a site to coax along more casual visitors.
Property Tax Revolt >:D
Kat, your checks have not been cashed yet? Very interesting.
They're required by law to accept partial property tax payments according to RSA 80:71.
"Any person with a legal interest in real estate upon which a real estate tax lien has been executed may make partial payments in redemption to the collector of taxes who shall receive the same and give a receipt therefor."
If they're not accepting your partial property tax payments, you may be able to sue them.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 09:03 AM NHFT... you may be able to sue them.
r u the mike fisher I know? ;)
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on August 17, 2005, 09:02 AM NHFT
Kat, your checks have not been cashed yet? Very interesting.
They're required by law to accept partial property tax payments according to RSA 80:71.
"Any person with a legal interest in real estate upon which a real estate tax lien has been executed may make partial payments in redemption to the collector of taxes who shall receive the same and give a receipt therefor."
Have they already executed a real estate tax lien?
Not that I know of.
I've got a little discussion going about this here:
http://www.strike-the-root.com/cgi-local/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1123680757
Quote from: katdillon on August 19, 2005, 08:53 AM NHFT
I've got a little discussion going about this here:
http://www.strike-the-root.com/cgi-local/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1123680757
I don't know about that Mooie guy on the STR forum. ::)
He's probably one of those social anarchists.
Kat, did anything yet come of you refusing to pay the school portion of your property tax?
Nada. They never cashed my partial check. No letter. Nothing.
Quote from: katdillon on October 06, 2005, 03:36 PM NHFT
They never cashed my partial check.
Interesting. You guys are billed every 6 months, right? When's the next bill coming?
I looked up last year's and it came November 17th.
Let us know what happens this time...
maybe they won't bill us anymore :)
Quote from: katdillon on October 06, 2005, 03:36 PM NHFT
Nada. They never cashed my partial check. No letter. Nothing.
At least you know the law about partial payments from the Londonderry v. Salty affair. ;D
it won't matter .... it didn't help him
Is there anyway to avoid paying property taxes if you have a mortgage?
don't leave if they tell you to? :)
Quote from: KBCraig on October 06, 2005, 06:32 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on October 06, 2005, 03:36 PM NHFT
Nada.? They never cashed my partial check.? No letter.? Nothing.
At least you know the law about partial payments from the Londonderry v. Salty affair.? ;D
Quote from: russellkanning on October 06, 2005, 07:03 PM NHFT
it won't matter .... it didn't help him
Salty pled guilty to trespassing the first time. That's why they ignored the town's refusal of partial property tax payments.
Quote from: russellkanning on October 07, 2005, 03:05 PM NHFT
don't leave if they tell you to? :)
The mortgage I have on my house right now requires me to pay into an escrow at the bank and then they pay my taxes. I can't not pay into the escrow.
Are there banks that don't have this escrow?
If you refinance .... just go with one that doesn't bundle it all in.
Are you seriously thinking of not paying property taxes?
"We don't dump tea .... we just don't pay"
Quote from: russellkanning on October 07, 2005, 09:07 PM NHFT
If you refinance .... just go with one that doesn't bundle it all in.
Are you seriously thinking of not paying property taxes?
"We don't dump tea .... we just don't pay"
Boston Tea Party wasn't about taxation...it was about corporate monopoly privilege.
the east india corporation attempted to "dumped" their tea on the NE market to force out their competitors.
England was charging the Colonists tarrifs and wasn't charging E Indian.
Tracy
Kat's refusal is a major draw towards Keene. I'd be tempted to participate, once I get settled in.
how many people are in Keen?
Even if just 10% of the homeowners started refusing to Pay, it'd make a huge statement and put a lot of pressure against the system.
Tracy
"You let one ant stand up to us, then they ALL might stand up. Those 'puny
little ants' outnumber us a hundred to one, and if they ever figure that
out, there goes our way of life! It's not about food; it's about keeping
those ants in line!" - Hopper -- A Bug's Life
According to Areaconnect.com, over 22k.
We have 22-23 in the town and we share a school district with even more. The school tax is what we are not paying .... but if they don' ever cash our check, then we aren't paying the city or county tax either.
Quote from: russellkanning on October 07, 2005, 09:07 PM NHFT
Are you seriously thinking of not paying property taxes?
Just learning and trying to keep my options open :-)
It probably won't be anytime soon, at least not until I can figure out what I would do if they did manage to take my home. Also I have yet to move to NH but that will happen soon :-)
I am inspired by the Kelo 7+1. When the government said "go" they said "No". 8)
That's a coincidence, the +1 was inspired by Russell and Kat.
Quote from: eukreign on October 07, 2005, 08:19 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on October 07, 2005, 03:05 PM NHFT
don't leave if they tell you to? :)
The mortgage I have on my house right now requires me to pay into an escrow at the bank and then they pay my taxes. I can't not pay into the escrow.
Are there banks that don't have this escrow?
I don't have an escrow account on my mortgage.
Usually the bank requires tax escrow when your loan is more than 80% of the value.
Quote from: EZPass on October 22, 2005, 07:25 PM NHFT
Usually the bank requires tax escrow when your loan is more than 80% of the value.
Heh, our loan was 75% of the value.
Get a new bank. They're sticking it to you.
Quote from: EZPass on October 22, 2005, 09:50 PM NHFT
Get a new bank. They're sticking it to you.
Well, we're moving to NH soon, so that's definitely an option. The nice thing about our bank though is that it's a credit union and we get really nice rates. Unfortunately, this bank does not have a branch in NH so we will most likely have to switch to another bank and we'll definitely look for one that will not require a tax escrow.
Any recommendations for good NH banks? Or should we wait until we move and go to a small local bank particular to the city we decide to move to?
Quote from: eukreign on October 22, 2005, 11:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: EZPass on October 22, 2005, 09:50 PM NHFT
Get a new bank. They're sticking it to you.
Any recommendations for good NH banks?
Just did a refinance at Laconia Savings Bank. No tax escrow or insurance escrow required if you own more than 20% equity. Nice people, too.
Quote from: EZPass on October 23, 2005, 07:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on October 22, 2005, 11:10 PM NHFT
Any recommendations for good NH banks?
Just did a refinance at Laconia Savings Bank. No tax escrow or insurance escrow required if you own more than 20% equity. Nice people, too.
Thanks for the tip, we will consider them when we get our butts to NH :-)
Now to find a realtor...
Quote from: eukreign on October 23, 2005, 09:54 PM NHFT
Now to find a realtor...
Rumor has it there's one in the Seacoast area, who likes to hug.
But you don't want to live there. ;)
Quote from: KBCraig on October 23, 2005, 10:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on October 23, 2005, 09:54 PM NHFT
Now to find a realtor...
Rumor has it there's one in the Seacoast area, who likes to hug.
But you don't want to live there.? ;)
Oh, no! Not.... the Porcupine hugger! ;D
What part of the state do you want a realtor in, eukreign?
Quote from: KBCraig on October 23, 2005, 10:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on October 23, 2005, 09:54 PM NHFT
Now to find a realtor...
Rumor has it there's one in the Seacoast area, who likes to hug.
But you don't want to live there.? ;)
I believe dave has listings for the entire state.
davemincin@gmail.com
Quote from: katdillon on October 24, 2005, 05:24 AM NHFT
What part of the state do you want a realtor in, eukreign?
Keene area.
:) Cool.
If DaveM doesn't want to travel that far, this guy was good:
Matthew Clark of Maisello Group
(603) 352-5433 69a Island St
Keene, NH
http://www.masiello.com/
Quote from: eukreign on October 22, 2005, 11:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: EZPass on October 22, 2005, 09:50 PM NHFT
Get a new bank. They're sticking it to you.
Well, we're moving to NH soon, so that's definitely an option. The nice thing about our bank though is that it's a credit union and we get really nice rates. Unfortunately, this bank does not have a branch in NH so we will most likely have to switch to another bank and we'll definitely look for one that will not require a tax escrow.
Any recommendations for good NH banks? Or should we wait until we move and go to a small local bank particular to the city we decide to move to?
You can stick with the CU. I got my mortgage through my CU in CA. I got a local checking account in town just because.
Also if you want to save 25% on you realtor fees see if you credit union does something like this:
http://xfcu.cuhomesavings.com/
Basically you go through that program to get your realtor (one local to the area you are looking in). Then you get 25% of the realtor's commission back to you.
We found a realtor here in NH that we wanted, showed her the website and said I can do this or I can go to you if match it. She did.
It is worth a try.
I got a property tax bill from Keene today. They don't say if there are any penalties/interest. There's just a generic note that says, "If there is a balance due on the preliminary bill (the first of July bill) please call ... for the total with interest amount due." They did actually cash my partial check way back. I just missed it somehow. They apparently reassessed my house value up 20%, which is rediculous for an ancient mobile home.
If she's not gonna pay the whole tax, just raise the total of the tax.
::)
Heh. I should say "I don't accept your version of the value of my property. I'm only going to pay on the real value."
Quote from: katdillon on November 01, 2005, 06:51 PM NHFT
Heh.? I should say "I don't accept your version of the value of my property.? I'm only going to pay on the real value."
Great idea. They do this to people all the time, and people tolerate it - BUT WHY?
Go Kat, go! ;D
Quote from: katdillon on November 01, 2005, 06:31 PM NHFT
They apparently reassessed my house value up 20%, which is rediculous for an ancient mobile home.
That is very Fucked up. Trailers drop and drop and drop in value. Up 20% in one year in a town that just had a massive flood? Fat chance. I's say that they need to be in jail.
Quote from: LeRuineur6 on November 01, 2005, 07:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on November 01, 2005, 06:51 PM NHFT
Heh. I should say "I don't accept your version of the value of my property. I'm only going to pay on the real value."
Great idea. They do this to people all the time, and people tolerate it - BUT WHY?
The National Taxpayer's Association actually does a lot of work educating people about how to go down and fight down property value assessments.
Every year they have another updated version if you donate to them. (And they aren't a completely terrible organization.)
They didn't try and come into my house to appraise it, btw. I doubt they even looked at it.
Quote from: katdillon on November 04, 2005, 08:48 AM NHFT
They didn't try and come into my house to appraise it, btw. I doubt they even looked at it.
Maybe it has a nice View?
The view tax in effect. ;)
I can see the flooded river from my back fence.
Quote from: katdillon on November 04, 2005, 11:44 AM NHFT
I can see the flooded river from my back fence.
River front property.... see one more flood and your taxes will go up again.
Quote from: Dreepa on November 04, 2005, 12:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on November 04, 2005, 11:44 AM NHFT
I can see the flooded river from my back fence.
River front property.... see one more flood and your taxes will go up again.
VIEW TAX! VIEW TAX! LOL
Quote from: Dreepa on November 04, 2005, 12:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: katdillon on November 04, 2005, 11:44 AM NHFT
I can see the flooded river from my back fence.
River front property.... see one more flood and your taxes will go up again.
Don't give them any ideas ::)
Quote from: katdillon on November 04, 2005, 11:44 AM NHFT
I can see the flooded river from my back fence.
Maybe you'll be reassessed as beachfront >:D
Quote from: Scott Roth on November 12, 2005, 10:21 PM NHFT
Property upgrade: Deluxe Swimming Pool
Olympic Size Swimming Pool in backyard, that'll get your taxes up 300%.
Quote from: eukreign on November 13, 2005, 11:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: Scott Roth on November 12, 2005, 10:21 PM NHFT
Property upgrade:? Deluxe Swimming Pool
Olympic Size Swimming Pool in backyard, that'll get your taxes up 300%.
It should make the taxes go down. I heard that land with a few feet of water on it is worthless in NH :)
Quote from: TN-FSP on November 13, 2005, 03:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: eukreign on November 13, 2005, 11:10 AM NHFT
Quote from: Scott Roth on November 12, 2005, 10:21 PM NHFT
Property upgrade:? Deluxe Swimming Pool
Olympic Size Swimming Pool in backyard, that'll get your taxes up 300%.
It should make the taxes go down.? I heard that land with a few feet of water on it is worthless in NH? :)
LOL ;D
Did we mention that we are also not paying the city/county/state property taxes anymore either?
Quote from: russellkanning on January 01, 2006, 11:55 AM NHFT
Did we mention that we are also not paying the city/county/state property taxes anymore either?
Things are starting to get interesting. ;)
Quote from: russellkanning on January 01, 2006, 11:55 AM NHFT
Did we mention that we are also not paying the city/county/state property taxes anymore either?
Federal? Are you paying any taxes at all?
I don't pay any federal income taxes or file any forms. I paid some SStaxes last year, but don't want to do that anymore.
We started not paying school property taxes in the spring and decided to also not pay the city type property taxes anymore. We basically do not use any of their services so.....
We pay some road taxes when we gas up and any things that are passed on by businesses and our landlord.
The big savings comes from not paying income taxes. The property tax bill they sent us last year was low. Our house is cheap. I also saved maybe $10,000 by ignoring the TSA's "proposed civil penalty". A penny saved is a penny earned or $00.014 when you factor in income taxes. :)
We pay gasoline taxes, phone taxes.
Caleb mentioned that he talked to a city councilor in Keene and he said that they have never actually kicked someone out of their house for a property tax bill.
That kind of info could be of interest to any other property tax revolters in Keene. ;)
You also pay Room and Meals taxes when you eat at a restaurant.
Quote from: russellkanning on January 01, 2006, 12:54 PM NHFT
Caleb mentioned that he talked to a city councilor in Keene and he said that they have never actually kicked someone out of their house for a property tax bill.
That kind of info could be of interest to any other property tax revolters in Keene. ;)
Probably because people who can't pay will sell first... so no one's really tested the whole process.
In the end, your house will be taken by the state and all profits from the sale will go to the town even if you leave it in your will to someone else because they put a lien on it.
Protesters could also take it to the brink of it being taken, and then pay up, if they don't want to lose the house.
But if they know you will pay .... then they will just push you to that point.
It will be interesting to see what they do with us over time.
This has to be my favorite protest.. we love mentioning it on-air! So the Nov bill came around and you just did nothing at all this time out, right?
Yes
Quote from: AlanM on January 01, 2006, 12:55 PM NHFT
You also pay Room and Meals taxes when you eat at a restaurant.
That's one reason you won't generally see me eating at porc meetings in restaurants. I eat before I show up or just fast. Generally.
lets see how many days have we been property tax free? Maybe we could just start the count this year.
So 4+ days of property tax freedom in Keene, NH!
I try not to talk to lawyers.
Quote from: wholetthedogin? on January 04, 2006, 08:56 AM NHFT
An association of like minded non-property tax paying property owners could conceivibly decide to allow an associate to represent the group pro-se.? You can stick your head in the ground like an ostrich, but that won't prevent the swing of the axe, when it is your time.
Ah, but will the axe be used with a thousand on-lookers.
Did you miss on the "Reign of Terror" lecture in history class? The onlookers like to see the head hit the basket.
Quote from: wholetthedogin? on January 04, 2006, 08:56 AM NHFT
You can stick your head in the ground like an ostrich, but that won't prevent the swing of the axe, when it is your time.
With my head in the sand maybe the axe will miss me.
Since when is ignoring lawyers, sand head sticking? Jefferson tried to avoid them and even stopped practicing himself. :)
If I never pay the bills they send me, I don't care how big those bills get.
Quote from: wholetthedogin? on January 04, 2006, 11:45 AM NHFT
Some similar minded folk may want to associate themselves with you so to take a fighting stand together, kinda like hangin' together.
Is this the fight you want to sink your homeownership on?
Good Idea
Yes
If NH has low taxes compared to other states, it's a perfect place to take 'em down even further.
The relative freedom was built mostly before the FSP got here by the admirable people of NH.
The original New Hamshirers have fought the tax beast for a long time.
Let's not just sip cocoa on our couches and enjoy all their work, let's get in there and take a few bites of our own.
Isn't that what the FSPers signed up for?
:D
I bet property taxes where alot lower 200 years ago ...... in fact the didn't have public schools .... why can't we return to that? ...... I think we can. :)
>:D
Quote from: wholetthedogin? on January 04, 2006, 08:32 AM NHFT
An association of property owners in each county who are not paying part or all of their property taxes should be formed. One town would technically be subject to a class-action suit when a single property owner gets notified of a tax sale. It will not be hard to determine who gets the first volley. Anyone at or beyond the 3 year point is subject to tax sale, no town forgets to file their tax liens. You might find an attorney willing to tackle such a case at some price. The tax sale could conceivably be stayed for the length of time the court action is on-going. Individuals property owners will have their property stripped from their possession without joining forces.
Lawyers, understanding the laws, etc. are all useless for the most part. See: http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=2467.0
Are you actively advertising a campaign to encourage others to also not pay property taxes? Has anybody joined you?
How many people live in Keene?
Tracy
Yes. None that I know of. 23,000
Caleb is asking every local candidate to take a pledge not to seize anyone's homes. :)
As soon as I get some property of my own, I want to join in this property tax revolt. I've never had the idea that I would pay for my own property, beyond purchasing it initially.
If us libertarians could, instead of individually revolting with our properties, all pitch in to buy a few acres somewhere in NH, and then refuse to pay a tax on that... that's a lot more to stand up to, especially if we all armed ourselves and stood like marksmen at the property line, with a sign saying "We will die for our inalienable right to property, will you force us to?" ... that would send a message. A huge message.
Quote from: aries on February 09, 2006, 06:09 PM NHFT
As soon as I get some property of my own, I want to join in this property tax revolt. I've never had the idea that I would pay for my own property, beyond purchasing it initially.
If us libertarians could, instead of individually revolting with our properties, all pitch in to buy a few acres somewhere in NH, and then refuse to pay a tax on that... that's a lot more to stand up to, especially if we all armed ourselves and stood like marksmen at the property line, with a sign saying "We will die for our inalienable right to property, will you force us to?" ... that would send a message. A huge message.
You mean like Waco?
(http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg)
Quote from: Lex Berezhny on February 09, 2006, 07:34 PM NHFT
Quote from: aries on February 09, 2006, 06:09 PM NHFT
As soon as I get some property of my own, I want to join in this property tax revolt. I've never had the idea that I would pay for my own property, beyond purchasing it initially.
If us libertarians could, instead of individually revolting with our properties, all pitch in to buy a few acres somewhere in NH, and then refuse to pay a tax on that... that's a lot more to stand up to, especially if we all armed ourselves and stood like marksmen at the property line, with a sign saying "We will die for our inalienable right to property, will you force us to?" ... that would send a message. A huge message.
You mean like Waco?
(http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg)
Except motivated by a rejection of use of force to obtain a property tax, and not religiously motivated, sure.
Oh and hopefully they won't kill us, especially if we can get there in big numbers (like 1000)... If they did, I'd be glad I died rather than live in that twisted incarnation of America, where you get the death penalty for defending your right to property.
I don't plan on shooting anyone if they come to our house ..... but don't let me discourage you. :)
Quote from: aries on February 09, 2006, 06:09 PM NHFT
As soon as I get some property of my own, I want to join in this property tax revolt. I've never had the idea that I would pay for my own property, beyond purchasing it initially.
If us libertarians could, instead of individually revolting with our properties, all pitch in to buy a few acres somewhere in NH, and then refuse to pay a tax on that... that's a lot more to stand up to, especially if we all armed ourselves and stood like marksmen at the property line, with a sign saying "We will die for our inalienable right to property, will you force us to?" ... that would send a message. A huge message.
Well the 'revolt' in NH had better educate itself to these town moderators allowing amendments to their citizens petitions.
This is a constitutional right and already some moderators dare to argue with me about it.
In Bedford they had two such outrageous petitioned items and neither was touched this time. I guess the Bedford school board did not want to be sued after what they did the last time.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on January 04, 2006, 06:08 PM NHFT
If NH has low taxes compared to other states, it's a perfect place to take 'em down even further.
The relative freedom was built mostly before the FSP got here by the admirable people of NH.
The original New Hamshirers have fought the tax beast for a long time.
Let's not just sip cocoa on our couches and enjoy all their work, let's get in there and take a few bites of our own.
Isn't that what the FSPers signed up for?
You got it Lauren! We call ourselves New Hampshirites. And the bulk of the taxation occurs at the TOWN level which is why it's imperative to get to the deliberative sessions and town meetings and raise hell.
For example, last year, the good but oppressed people of Merrimack voted that if there were a surplus in the budget, it shall be returned to the taxpayers. However the selectmen REFUSE to do this. Time to get your pitchforks IMHO! Now the town moderator is arguing with me on the Merrimack Forum saying they are going to trash any petitions submitted by the people, petitions that would place items on the ballot by CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to be there WITHOUT AMENDMENT!
The group that formed in Merrimack is new and I am trying to arm them with the facts, but I think they are going to have to bring a Constitutional lawyer with them.
This is why local political action is so important and not letting town officials have their way at these 200+ year old meetings where they can vote up spending and suck the landowners dry.
10 years ago two people took office in Merrimack and have caused the spending to increase 61% and now the young families are freaking out and feeling the damage. Some newcomers do not realize that this is where most of the tax damage comes from and NEED to attend and rally at these meetings and vote all spending DOWN.
Here is but one outrageous item: Merrimack has already spent $9,000 to have a website company make a 'presentation' to them for their proposed $200,000 site. When it was voted to stop that expenditure, they said they would get the money elsewhere in the budget, again illegal!
If you don't stick up for your rights, you will lose them.... I am sure Lauren is one who believes that!
I have never declined paying the highway tax, because I am as desirous of being a good neighbor as I am of being a bad subject; and as for supporting schools, I am doing my part to educate my fellow countrymen now. It is for no particular item in the tax bill that I refuse to pay it. I simply wish to refuse allegiance to the State, to withdraw and stand aloof from it effectually. I do not care to trace the course of my dollar, if I could, till it buys a man a musket to shoot one with--the dollar is innocent--but I am concerned to trace the effects of my allegiance. In fact, I quietly declare war with the State, after my fashion, though I will still make use and get what advantages of her I can, as is usual in such cases.
Quote from: russellkanning on February 28, 2006, 01:20 PM NHFT
I have never declined paying the highway tax, because I am as desirous of being a good neighbor as I am of being a bad subject; and as for supporting schools, I am doing my part to educate my fellow countrymen now. It is for no particular item in the tax bill that I refuse to pay it. I simply wish to refuse allegiance to the State, to withdraw and stand aloof from it effectually. I do not care to trace the course of my dollar, if I could, till it buys a man a musket to shoot one with--the dollar is innocent--but I am concerned to trace the effects of my allegiance. In fact, I quietly declare war with the State, after my fashion, though I will still make use and get what advantages of her I can, as is usual in such cases.
People can also refuse to pay their property taxes but this is dangerous simply because in 3 years they can lose the home.
I often wish I could not pay the part of my taxes that go for schools, about $5,000, because not only do I not like the way the money is spent, I have never even had a kid in the schools and never will.
But I would lose my house and that would not be financially practical.
I thought that quote from Thoreau was good.
I am advocating that in order to achieve change, we will have to individually not co-operate with the government.
I think Ghandi said that you are only free after you are no longer afraid ...... one thing to be afraid of is loosing our possessions.
Jesus also said to not worry about food or clothes. Matt. 6:25
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=49#en-NASB-23308
Quote from: russellkanning on February 28, 2006, 02:05 PM NHFT
I thought that quote from Thoreau was good.
I am advocating that in order to achieve change, we will have to individually not co-operate with the government.
I think Ghandi said that you are only free after you are no longer afraid ...... one thing to be afraid of is loosing our possessions.
Jesus also said to not worry about food or clothes. Matt. 6:25
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=49#en-NASB-23308
Well if I lost my home, where would I live? I would in effect just be giving *several* hundred thousands dollars MORE to those I don't want to pay in the first place!
Think about that! :'(
Why leave when they tell you to leave.
You are willing to defend your well with a gun from others, you could do the same thing with your whole house. :)
Quote from: CNHT on February 28, 2006, 02:10 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on February 28, 2006, 02:05 PM NHFT
I thought that quote from Thoreau was good.
I am advocating that in order to achieve change, we will have to individually not co-operate with the government.
I think Ghandi said that you are only free after you are no longer afraid ...... one thing to be afraid of is loosing our possessions.
Jesus also said to not worry about food or clothes. Matt. 6:25
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=49#en-NASB-23308
Well if I lost my home, where would I live? I would in effect just be giving *several* hundred thousands dollars MORE to those I don't want to pay in the first place!
Think about that! :'(
no - the property would be sold (market value not personal utility value) and you would walk away with the equity minus the property taxes you owe...
If we do what we have been doing, then property taxes will slowly go up. If you want that to change, we will have to do something different.
I am choosing to not pay.
Quote from: CNHT on February 28, 2006, 02:10 PM NHFT
Well if I lost my home, where would I live? I would in effect just be giving *several* hundred thousands dollars MORE to those I don't want to pay in the first place!
Think about that! :'(
Quote from: FrankChodorov on February 28, 2006, 02:22 PM NHFT
no - the property would be sold (market value not personal utility value) and you would walk away with the equity minus the property taxes you owe...
Hmm, meanwhile, where would I go?
I'm sure you love your house, but, you could consider moving your equity to a smaller town where your money would buy more and you might have more say in a smaller local government.
Also, you could do whatever you could to make your move a media event. "Retire Flees Bedford due to out of control taxes!"
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on March 06, 2006, 10:07 AM NHFT
I'm sure you love your house, but, you could consider moving your equity to a smaller town where your money would buy more and you might have more say in a smaller local government.
Also, you could do whatever you could to make your move a media event. "Retire Flees Bedford due to out of control taxes!"
Well the media has already covered several people who have had to do that, and all one needs to do is look at the housing sales etc...
As for smaller towns, they are usually higher in taxes so I would get less for my money if I built elsewhere. I talked about moving further into the woods but since I no longer have a man living with me full time, it would be tough to run a household out on my own that far from civilization. (It's tough running one alone as is, even though I am the truck driving pioneer woman that I am.. )
Otherwise that is what we would have done together had my beloved survived ? downsize and go out further.
Can't give in to the "Man".
Jane, I doubt that higher taxes in small towns is true outside of the southern Merrimac valley.
Also, you are setting the Womans Movement back 30 years with your other statement.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on March 06, 2006, 12:06 PM NHFT
Jane, I doubt that higher taxes in small towns is true outside of the southern Merrimac valley.
Tax rates and total taxation are very specific to each location. Yet another loveable quirk about NH.
QuoteAlso, you are setting the Womans Movement back 30 years with your other statement.
That she needs a man? There are a sizeable number of folks out there who share the view that men and women are complementary; they need each other in order to be complete. For some, it goes back to a strict Biblical view of Adam & Eve. For others, it's a totally secular, and kinky, variation of dominance & submission, or D/s. There exists a broad range in between, and we can't forget that the dominant gender is reversed in some folks' preference.
Mary and I are entirely complementary. We each serve a role in the marriage and family relationship, a role defined by our abilities, not by our genitalia.
The "Womens' Movement" of 30 years ago wouldn't look kindly on Mary's choice to move from indpendent single mother and business owner, to happily married woman, and her goal of being an at-home home-schooling mother. The women of 2006 are free to choose whether or not they wish to be enslaved and subjugated.
For their complementary partners, this is a good thing. >:D
Kevin
I'm all for complimentary genitalia.
Quote from: katdillon on March 07, 2006, 06:04 AM NHFT
I'm all for complimentary genitalia.
They got that out in the sticks!
On the front page of the next Keene Free Press we ask the question "Is it time for a property tax revolt?" :)
Quote from: katdillon on March 07, 2006, 06:04 AM NHFT
I'm all for complimentary genitalia.
It's nice to have your complement complimented.
Hippie chimp with genital handshakes
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2627&ncid=2627&e=7&u=/ap/20060303/ap_on_sc/congo_disappearing_chimp_1
Jane and all what are your thoughts on the practical ways to protect a home from being seized? Russell and Kat's place will likely be the first of ours they come after since within our group they were the first to stop paying.
How do we make sure the town never takes the house?
What worked in New London so far has been people always making sure there is someone in the home; that way they can't bulldoze it. wonder if this would work to prevent simple seizure of a home, and what else would work.
Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 11, 2006, 02:26 AM NHFT
Jane and all what are your thoughts on the practical ways to protect a home from being seized? Russell and Kat's place will likely be the first of ours they come after since within our group they were the first to stop paying.
Did I miss something? Are there others who have stopped paying besides Kat and Russell? :o
don't they live in a mobile home?
do they own the land the mobile home sits on?
Not that I know of. The rest are just complaining about high taxes.
Quote from: FrankChodorov on March 11, 2006, 06:40 AM NHFT
don't they live in a mobile home?
do they own the land the mobile home sits on?
Yes, I think they could just move the mobile home.
Quote from: TN-FSP on March 11, 2006, 10:34 AM NHFT
Quote from: FrankChodorov on March 11, 2006, 06:40 AM NHFT
don't they live in a mobile home?
do they own the land the mobile home sits on?
Yes, I think they could just move the mobile home.
you mean the state could with them inside?
russell and kat are the only ones of us that have done this, or the first depending on whether others emulate them. But other NH residents have done it, like Bernie Bastion and Andy Templeman . Ed naile knows a lot about their cases and i've met both of them, they both did lose houses.
I had this funny image flash before me with the state police chasing the two of them in their mobile home down the interstate...
I think I've found the answer: Kat and Russell just need to plant some nuclear waste in their house.
From today's Berlin Daily Sun, about a controversial city councilman:
Quote
While Roy originally said he would resign, he later changed his mind and said he had decided to continue.
The Ward IV councilor is also on a list of delinquent taxpayers who have until noon on Thursday to pay their 2003 tax liens or face having their property tax deeded by the city.The list prepared by Tax Collector Blandine Shallow shows Richard and Heather Roy owe $462 on their building on 466 Burgess Street and $188 for a parcel of land on Hillsboro Street.
In all the list shows approximately $40,000 in unpaid 2003 taxes. The properties accure interest at a rate of 12 percent. Once they are tax deeded the interest rate increases to 18 percent. There is also a 15 percent assessment fee.
The council Monday night voted to waive tax deeding four Pulp and Paper of America properties over concerns about potential hazardous materials on the former mill properties.
That would be a good way for us to ignore the government. We could lose our deeds (ala Kelo 6) but buy and sell places on the black market. Who needs government paperwork. You could also list your property as having $0 taxes. :)
Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 11, 2006, 03:45 PM NHFT
russell and kat are the only ones of us that have done this, or the first depending on whether others emulate them. But other NH residents have done it, like Bernie Bastion and Andy Templeman . Ed naile knows a lot about their cases and i've met both of them, they both did lose houses.
And tell me why you would want to lose your home to the government, allowing them to take even MORE money from you? ::)
Quote from: CNHT on May 17, 2006, 12:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 11, 2006, 03:45 PM NHFT
russell and kat are the only ones of us that have done this, or the first depending on whether others emulate them. But other NH residents have done it, like Bernie Bastion and Andy Templeman . Ed naile knows a lot about their cases and i've met both of them, they both did lose houses.
And tell me why you would want to lose your home to the government, allowing them to take even MORE money from you? ::)
Maybe they're willing to stand up to the government by using force?
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on May 17, 2006, 01:03 PM NHFT
Quote from: CNHT on May 17, 2006, 12:48 PM NHFT
Quote from: DadaOrwell on March 11, 2006, 03:45 PM NHFT
russell and kat are the only ones of us that have done this, or the first depending on whether others emulate them. But other NH residents have done it, like Bernie Bastion and Andy Templeman . Ed naile knows a lot about their cases and i've met both of them, they both did lose houses.
And tell me why you would want to lose your home to the government, allowing them to take even MORE money from you? ::)
Maybe they're willing to stand up to the government by using force?
Using force? I'm not sure I understand how letting the town take your house is using force?
Using force? I'm not sure I understand how letting the town take your house is using force?
[/quote]
Point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that they're gonna let the government take anything. I would presume they would defend their property should the government try to step on their toes. Kind of like or maybe moreso than the Kelo folks. I thought we're supposed to stand up to the government should they do us any personal wrongs. It's a fine line to walk and maybe someday I will muster the cajones to do the same. For standing strong, they must be admired. And should they ever have a problem, I shall consider myself at risk too.
taking a government deed and changing the name is different than taking the house. (see Kelo 6) :)
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on May 17, 2006, 02:40 PM NHFT
Point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that they're gonna let the government take anything. I would presume they would defend their property should the government try to step on their toes. Kind of like or maybe moreso than the Kelo folks. I thought we're supposed to stand up to the government should they do us any personal wrongs. It's a fine line to walk and maybe someday I will muster the cajones to do the same. For standing strong, they must be admired. And should they ever have a problem, I shall consider myself at risk too.
Well both Templeman and Bastien did not use force, obviously, because they were driven out of their homes. The just let the gov't take their property.
What was the point in that?
Since we are all non-violent (I think we all agree on that priniciple) you can go to court all you want but inevitably your property will be taken and you will be evicted.
That is unfortunate for them, but somehow I don't think that they were very organized nor had anyone behind them. Anyways, what ever happened to them after they were evicted?
Quote from: FSP-Rebel on May 27, 2006, 02:08 PM NHFT
That is unfortunate for them, but somehow I don't think that they were very organized nor had anyone behind them. Anyways, what ever happened to them after they were evicted?
Well they are still around...I saw Bernie a few weeks ago and Andy, I dunno what he is doing but people are in touch with him.
Quote from: russellkanning on May 17, 2006, 02:44 PM NHFT
taking a government deed and changing the name is different than taking the house. (see Kelo 6) :)
Russell, I'm not sure what you mean here, can you explain this to me a bit more?
Quote from: CNHT on May 27, 2006, 06:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on May 17, 2006, 02:44 PM NHFT
taking a government deed and changing the name is different than taking the house. (see Kelo 6) :)
Russell, I'm not sure what you mean here, can you explain this to me a bit more?
The City of New London took the deeds of the Kelo 6 many years ago, yet the rightful owners still control their properties.
The authorities are afraid using force to evict the residents will turn public sentiment (further) against them.
Quote from: TackleTheWorld on May 27, 2006, 07:22 PM NHFT
Quote from: CNHT on May 27, 2006, 06:12 PM NHFT
Quote from: russellkanning on May 17, 2006, 02:44 PM NHFT
taking a government deed and changing the name is different than taking the house. (see Kelo 6) :)
Russell, I'm not sure what you mean here, can you explain this to me a bit more?
The City of New London took the deeds of the Kelo 6 many years ago, yet the rightful owners still control their properties.
The authorities are afraid using force to evict the residents will turn public sentiment (further) against them.
Aha, I did not know this had been in the works that long. I don't know how the two here in NH were eventually evicted (Andy and Bernie) but we know them well.
We are also watching closely the Browns' case....the IRS may come and just take everything they have then throw them in jail. I surely hope not.
OK, so Ian's post here (http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=4490.0) got me thinking.
Do you think it'd be possible to convince 50 people (50 people -- they can't take all of us on.) to refuse to pay their property taxes?
50 people all spread out around the town. There's no WAY they'd be able to rade all those homes and steal them.
You just need 50 people! (well, actually 50 seperate residences.)
Do you think you could find 50 people in a city of 22 thousand who own their own property and refuse to pay taxes?
You might even get a few landlords tell all their tenants and they'll lower their rent if the tenent doesn't mind the land-lord not paying property taxes.
It really doesn't take much at all to with-draw and topple consent.
Say 50 families stopped paying property taxes in Keene. Once word started spreading that the government forgot about a good chunk of them and where ineffective at tossing out a good chunk of the rest from their homes.
3 or 4 years later, you could have a situation where people just laugh at the government and refuse to pay it.
Tracy
They did it to a bunch of homes in New London CT ..... 50 doesn't guarantee protection.
BTW .... still not payun
Well -- but see, according to Ian, there's only 50 cops in Keene.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 20, 2006, 02:30 AM NHFT
Do you think you could find 50 people in a city of 22 thousand who own their own property and refuse to pay taxes?
You might even get a few landlords tell all their tenants and they'll lower their rent if the tenent doesn't mind the land-lord not paying property taxes.
It really doesn't take much at all to with-draw and topple consent.
They just do one at a time.
But if the 50 property tax revolters were coordinated, you could pretty much have 50 against 50 a large amout of the time.
And those 50 revolters would probably have friends who -- though they still pay their own property taxes -- might help defend the property of the revolters.
With passive civil disobendience of course.
Tracy
Sounds good. When you move here, I can help stand in front of your house.
OK.
Russels trying out variations of his "I think you should do it."
;D
Tracy
I like the plan .... I am just not going to wait to have 50 people join in. I am doing it already and if you join me I will help you out. :)
How about this:
I think you should move to Keene and refuse to pay the outrages bill that the local crime bosses hand you in the form of a property tax.
Then I think you should turn over the tax collectors tables with me once a week and get arrested with me.
Then I think you should tell jokes in jail that make me laugh and make the guards change thier minds and let us go.
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 20, 2006, 01:42 PM NHFT
But if the 50 property tax revolters were coordinated, you could pretty much have 50 against 50 a large amout of the time.
That means leaving the other 49 properties unprotected.
Well if they're wealthy enough, they might be able to higher private security and private gaurds. . . ;D
Seriously,
Perhaps we could figure out a way to work out the logistics so that we could solve that problem Kevin.
Tracy
No better time than now Tracy .... you could do that there. :)
Tracy... sell the house now in SD. Take your equity and move to NH.
Are you going to move to Keene?
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 20, 2006, 09:39 PM NHFT
Perhaps we could figure out a way to work out the logistics so that we could solve that problem Kevin.
I'm sure it's possible, and I'd like to see it happen.
Just so no one misunderstands, I absolutely support those who decide to stop paying taxes, and I don't want to sound pessimistic about standing up to the property thieves. I was just pointing out that 50 people banding together to stop paying taxes will be no safer together than they'd be individually. A civil disobedience action to stop the government from seizing property will have to rely on outsiders; if only the tax protestors are involved, police could just switch their focus from the property that is guarded, to those that aren't.
Kevin
SD isn't like the bay area .... there might not be a pile of equity. :(
Land worth more:
Better view
Beach/lake front
better neighborhoods
less crime
better schools
better neighbors
better access to certain stores
closer to highway
Quote from: Dreepa on July 21, 2006, 12:51 PM NHFT
Land worth more:
Better view
Beach/lake front
better neighborhoods
less crime
better schools
better neighbors
better access to certain stores
closer to highway
yes - all externally derived by value of location.
Quote from: russellkanning on July 21, 2006, 10:11 AM NHFT
SD isn't like the bay area .... there might not be a pile of equity. :(
Yeah. I've only got about $5,000 equity right now.
And I've got a decent amount of credit card debt from my young stupid years I've got to get rid of.
Still looking at 2010 at my target year.
And to answer the question. I'm actually planning on moving th Grafton at this point.
TRacy
Actually land values would be going down too if it wasn't for inflation, Zoning laws, and property taxes.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 21, 2006, 01:51 PM NHFT
Yeah. I've only got about $5,000 equity right now.
And I've got a decent amount of credit card debt from my young stupid years I've got to get rid of.
Still looking at 2010 at my target year.
And to answer the question. I'm actually planning on moving th Grafton at this point.
TRacy
I thought you were waiting til you had the house paid off before you moved.
Hell if that is all the equity you might as well sell now and move now.
QuoteActually land values would be going down too
can you please explain to me using basic economic theory how something can go down in value when the supply is fixed and the demand continues to rise as populations rise?
Quote from: Dreepa on July 21, 2006, 02:15 PM NHFT
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 21, 2006, 01:51 PM NHFT
Yeah. I've only got about $5,000 equity right now.
And I've got a decent amount of credit card debt from my young stupid years I've got to get rid of.
Still looking at 2010 at my target year.
And to answer the question. I'm actually planning on moving th Grafton at this point.
TRacy
I thought you were waiting til you had the house paid off before you moved.
Hell if that is all the equity you might as well sell now and move now.
Well, here I'm able to accelerate my debt by an extra $1,500/month. I'm not convinced I'd be capible of doing that in New Hampshire -- where property values are higher, especially with the costs of moving.
I wouldn't be much use to you there, if I'm saddled with debt.
I've got to build up some capital first. And that means getting rid of the $10,000 CC debt and paying my house off.
This is going to take me between 4-5 years depending on what other emergencies we have along the way.
Tracy
What if you saved money and started a business here in the free state. Would that cut some time off your journey?
Be a shame to secede while you're living in SD
That would be a shame.
Of course if NH was a completely tax free haven from the Feds, it'd be easier to make a living their and easier to make the move.
Tracy
Bumping this.
Tracy
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 20, 2006, 09:39 PM NHFT
Well if they're wealthy enough, they might be able to higher private security and private gaurds.
So in other words, get a group of people to chip in together to hire someone to protect their property... Tracy, we already have that. It's called the police department.
Quote from: lildog on September 20, 2006, 03:36 PM NHFT
So in other words, get a group of people to chip in together to hire someone to protect their property... Tracy, we already have that. It's called the police department.
Oh? Where's my service agreement?
Quote from: lildog on September 20, 2006, 03:36 PM NHFT
So in other words, get a group of people to chip in together to hire someone to protect their property... Tracy, we already have that. It's called the police department.
I was never
asked to chip in to hire the police... They just threatened to send their boys around if I didn't "chip in."
Quote from: tracysaboe on July 20, 2006, 09:39 PM NHFT
Well if they're wealthy enough, they might be able to higher private security and private gaurds.
How much do you think a rent-a-cop job like that would pay?
Quote from: error on September 20, 2006, 08:16 PM NHFT
Quote from: lildog on September 20, 2006, 03:36 PM NHFT
So in other words, get a group of people to chip in together to hire someone to protect their property... Tracy, we already have that. It's called the police department.
I was never asked to chip in to hire the police... They just threatened to send their boys around if I didn't "chip in."
Just like the mafia. And they do it with the schools too. Whether we want it or not.