I was wondering if anyone with any banking experience has considerer opening a credit union?
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/cu/19990526a.asp
This could be a great way to support local investments and encourage better privacy in financial transactions. I have no Idea what it would take but it has a good chance of being very successful with all the people moving in and wanting to open businesses.
Kate
I think that's a great idea and would be very interested in pursuing it with other interested individuals. My dad, in Ohio, ran a medium-sized bank for 27 years. He could be a wealth of information. Did you notice how a federal credit union is exempt from income tax while a state credit union has to pay state income tax? NH would be perfect for a small, locally owned and operated credit union. I would also think (this is complete speculation) that a state credit union would have more flexibility in protecting individuals' identities and information. I think many banks are losing money today because they are still focused on highly visible, expensive store fronts on prime real estate. Most people are migrating toward online banking. I think a few, small branches of a liberty-oriented credit union in conjunction with a very developed and advanced online banking system would be very beneficial. Also, an advanced online banking system would allow future FSP-ers to participate.
We've been over this topic several times ;). Search for "credit union" on here and/or the FSP forum. The major roadblock right now I think is not potential clients or operation per se, but just getting enough capital. Of course, if we do 100% backed, that's less of an issue... Still, if you want to do loans and whatnot it will require some significant reserves- I'd say at least 100K.
Ideas about this?
I thought as our membership grew and as we gained more respect by New Hampshire residents that the funding may be possible.
I apologize that I didn't research this before I made the post. :blush:
This idealistic longing came from trying to make moving plans. Looking for banking options and internet/phone options have been driving me crazy. Trying to find real information and all the nut and bolts is a royal pain in the neck. :BangHead:
I just thought it would be really nice to use FRNS though a institution that was local, for and by liberty individuals who would actually respect my privacy and my money. Maybe they could take liberty dollars as well.
I've got you covered for phone service (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=6253.0).
The best idea for the time being is to find a credible, local CU- Ideally one that is single location and offers 'net banking. This will give you some more privacy, and you'll doubtlessly get better service because you won't just be a # like at a large national bank.
Quote from: alohamonkey on July 13, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
NH would be perfect for a small, locally owned and operated credit union.
NH actually has the first credit union in the US (St. Mary's) which was started by inviting the catholic social teaching practitioner Alphonse Desjardin down from Quebec to put into place his distributist practices on credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History)
excerpt:
The first credit union in North America, the Caisse populaire de Lévis in Québec, Canada, began operations on Jan. 23rd, 1901 with a ten cent deposit. Founder Alphonse Desjardins, a reporter in the Canadian parliament, was moved to take up his mission in 1897 when he learned of a Montrealer who had been ordered by the court to pay nearly $5,000 in interest on a loan of $150 from a moneylender. Drawing extensively on European precedents, Desjardins developed a unique parish-based model for Québec: the caisse populaire.
In the United States, St. Mary's Bank Credit Union of Manchester, NH holds the distinction as the first credit union. Assisted by a personal visit from Alphone Desjardins, St. Mary's was founded by French-speaking immigrants to Manchester from Quebec in November 1908.
Credit unions are owned by the members and controlled by a board elected from the membership. A small group of freedom lovers could have a significant impact if they joined a small liberty-leaning CU and became active in its governance. Stop me if you've heard this one before. ;)
Quote from: EthanAllen on July 15, 2007, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: alohamonkey on July 13, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
NH would be perfect for a small, locally owned and operated credit union.
NH actually has the first credit union in the US (St. Mary's) which was started by inviting the catholic social teaching practitioner Alphonse Desjardin down from Quebec to put into place his distributist practices on credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History)
excerpt:
The first credit union in North America, the Caisse populaire de Lévis in Québec, Canada, began operations on Jan. 23rd, 1901 with a ten cent deposit. Founder Alphonse Desjardins, a reporter in the Canadian parliament, was moved to take up his mission in 1897 when he learned of a Montrealer who had been ordered by the court to pay nearly $5,000 in interest on a loan of $150 from a moneylender. Drawing extensively on European precedents, Desjardins developed a unique parish-based model for Québec: the caisse populaire.
In the United States, St. Mary's Bank Credit Union of Manchester, NH holds the distinction as the first credit union. Assisted by a personal visit from Alphone Desjardins, St. Mary's was founded by French-speaking immigrants to Manchester from Quebec in November 1908.
That's pretty cool. I never knew that and I drive by it every day.
I was looking more into opening a credit union and the general rule of thumb is that you should have about 3,000 potential customers before opening. As of right now, how many free staters have actually moved? How many are projected to move in the next 2-3 years? Is there any way to find out where FSP members are geographically located?I could probably find this info myself . . . just haven't looked yet. I could raise some capital for an endeavor like this . . . but $100k is pretty steep. Where did you find this figure?
Quote from: alohamonkey on July 16, 2007, 08:55 AM NHFT
Quote from: EthanAllen on July 15, 2007, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote from: alohamonkey on July 13, 2007, 11:03 AM NHFT
NH would be perfect for a small, locally owned and operated credit union.
NH actually has the first credit union in the US (St. Mary's) which was started by inviting the catholic social teaching practitioner Alphonse Desjardin down from Quebec to put into place his distributist practices on credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_Union#History)
excerpt:
The first credit union in North America, the Caisse populaire de Lévis in Québec, Canada, began operations on Jan. 23rd, 1901 with a ten cent deposit. Founder Alphonse Desjardins, a reporter in the Canadian parliament, was moved to take up his mission in 1897 when he learned of a Montrealer who had been ordered by the court to pay nearly $5,000 in interest on a loan of $150 from a moneylender. Drawing extensively on European precedents, Desjardins developed a unique parish-based model for Québec: the caisse populaire.
In the United States, St. Mary's Bank Credit Union of Manchester, NH holds the distinction as the first credit union. Assisted by a personal visit from Alphone Desjardins, St. Mary's was founded by French-speaking immigrants to Manchester from Quebec in November 1908.
That's pretty cool. I never knew that and I drive by it every day.
I was looking more into opening a credit union and the general rule of thumb is that you should have about 3,000 potential customers before opening. As of right now, how many free staters have actually moved? How many are projected to move in the next 2-3 years? Is there any way to find out where FSP members are geographically located?I could probably find this info myself . . . just haven't looked yet. I could raise some capital for an endeavor like this . . . but $100k is pretty steep. Where did you find this figure?
I would suggest starting something like the WIR Coop Bank instead. First start with Ripple Pay accounts and then grow it into a B2B credit clearing system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system
Do we know any millionares? That would make life a lot simpler 8-).
Quote from: alohamonkey on July 16, 2007, 08:55 AM NHFT
As of right now, how many free staters have actually moved? How many are projected to move in the next 2-3 years? Is there any way to find out where FSP members are geographically located?
There are about 475 in the State of NH
www.freestateproject.org
In the next 1.5 years there should be at least 1200 in NH.
Where are they ?
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/states_count.php
Where are they in NH?
all over no one really keeps track of that.
Or, so we assume
I'll be there next year.
This is an awesome opportunity. I'd like to invest in a credit union that's pro-privacy. Someone mentioned on a different thread that we may have some roadblocks with the feds, so that's a consideration. But if we can offer a good service at a good price, specializing in an online presence, we can offer a home for money for every FSPer that moves. We need to pursue this. Who knows someone that owns a credit union? Banks are different.
http://www.acumuseum.org/
America's Credit Union Museum in Manchester
I've been tossing the idea around, that for folks to really be able to use Liberty Dollars (LD's) to their full potential, they need to be able to conduct simple financial transactions such as pay rent, buy fuel, electricity, etc.
This would be greatly facilitated through the use of transfer certificates (checks) or electronic Liberty Dollar accounts.
I'd like to discuss with people more knowledgeable about money than I, how LD's can be accepted as payment by a business, but then have some mechanism by which the local LD warehouse (bank) could purchase the promise of payment in LD's for FRN's. That way everybody is happy.
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Quote from: Bald Eagle on August 23, 2007, 06:46 PM NHFT
I've been tossing the idea around, that for folks to really be able to use Liberty Dollars (LD's) to their full potential, they need to be able to conduct simple financial transactions such as pay rent, buy fuel, electricity, etc.
This would be greatly facilitated through the use of transfer certificates (checks) or electronic Liberty Dollar accounts.
I'd like to discuss with people more knowledgeable about money than I, how LD's can be accepted as payment by a business, but then have some mechanism by which the local LD warehouse (bank) could purchase the promise of payment in LD's for FRN's. That way everybody is happy.
I think this repurchase idea was something Shuvom was working on.
Looks good. I think that for this to stay honest, we need to allow all members to tour the facility on a regular basis to ensure confidence. It would be fun and promotional, as well.
Quote from: KBCraig on July 16, 2007, 12:58 AM NHFT
Credit unions are owned by the members and controlled by a board elected from the membership. A small group of freedom lovers could have a significant impact if they joined a small liberty-leaning CU and became active in its governance. Stop me if you've heard this one before. ;)
What is stopping us from doing this?
Getting the silver issue through would be tricky. Silver deposits would be an added overhead expense, bank/accounting software likely not built for it... also, if you're in the business of making loans in FRN -- deposits in silver could hurt that goal.
Convincing them to quietly accept silver deposits may not be too difficult. However it does very little to increase trade in silver... not much different than a safe deposit box.
Getting them to actively promote silver and offer easy silver-FRN conversions may present a greater challenge.
How would you sell this idea to a credit union?
The model works better for a currency exchange/coin shop... but more people use credit unions. :/
The following are chartered in NH and have open membership:
Granite State (http://creditunionaccess.com/cu63272.htm) 26,713 members
Holy Rosary Regional (http://www.hrcu.org/)
Members First in NH (http://www.membersfirstnh.org)
Bellwether Community (http://www.bccu.org/) 16,713 members
Service Credit Union (http://creditunionaccess.com/cu68375.htm) 100,039 members
St Mary's Bank (http://www.stmarysbank.com/)
Triangle
Credit Union (https://www.trianglecu.org/site/about_us.html)
Quote from: picaro on August 26, 2007, 12:20 PM NHFT
What is stopping us from doing this?
To start a credit union we need 7 founding board members are required who are residents of New Hampshire and have experience with financial type stuff. IE, local business owners, accountants, local currencies, etc. These 7 send a letter of intent to the state banking commissioner with a sort of "petition" of people planning to be members.
In order for it to be a
state credit union, vs federal credit union, it must refrain from engaging in interstate commerce. That means all members must be residents of New Hampshire, investments made to businesses in New Hampshire, etc. It is not restricted from interstate (or international) check clearing or other such activities. Doing this keeps it under state regulations which are much nicer than federal regulations.
Under the state, and without bullshit such as the FDIC, we need not comply with the Real ID Act for starters.
Then we begin working on bylaws which fall within the various restrictions and regulations on credit unions as per state banking commissioner. I have posted these to this forum thread (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=14073.0) along with a request for interested people to meet on the 21st or 22nd of this month in Manchester. We need some concrete work toward making this happen, otherwise it'll remain just an idea being kicked around on the forums.
Quote from: picaro on August 26, 2007, 12:20 PM NHFT
Getting the silver issue through would be tricky. Silver deposits would be an added overhead expense, bank/accounting software likely not built for it... also, if you're in the business of making loans in FRN -- deposits in silver could hurt that goal.
Getting an existing credit union to do this may be difficult. With our own it will not. I'm thinking that we can go even further by encouraging alternative currencies, local currencies, LETS, you name it.
In order to guarantee the privacy of our members we'll have to do some custom setups already. Things such as possibly storing certain information only as a hash which can be verified against but not retrievable, in order to comply with federal regs while preventing employees/etc from accessing the information directly or searched unless another piece of information is also known.
There's enough geeks in this project to make that happen.
The tough part is the whole check writing thing and credit card thing. Both of which have a ton of Fed laws.
Quote from: Dreepa on September 10, 2007, 09:28 PM NHFT
The tough part is the whole check writing thing and credit card thing. Both of which have a ton of Fed laws.
Use Ripple pay...
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 10, 2007, 09:40 PM NHFT
Quote from: Dreepa on September 10, 2007, 09:28 PM NHFT
The tough part is the whole check writing thing and credit card thing. Both of which have a ton of Fed laws.
Use Ripple pay...
I agree but I think people want to start a 'real CU'....
QuoteI'm thinking that we can go even further by encouraging alternative currencies, local currencies, LETS, you name it.
I would suggest rather than a hard currency system look into setting up a B2B mutualist credit clearing system that ties the FSP social network to actual business and services (this is very ambitious). A LETS system is person to person system whereas a B2B mcc system can also loan money (see WIR Bank)
A "real CU" for their "fake money"?
Quote from: Dreepa on September 10, 2007, 09:28 PM NHFT
The tough part is the whole check writing thing and credit card thing. Both of which have a ton of Fed laws.
Being a
state credit union means that the federal laws only regulate specific activities, such as check clearing, rather than the internal operating parameters of the credit union itself. After looking over both sets of regulations New Hampshire's are far more flexible, acting more like a skeleton bylaws than anything else.
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 10, 2007, 09:43 PM NHFT
I would suggest rather than a hard currency system look into setting up a B2B mutualist credit clearing system that ties the FSP social network to actual business and services (this is very ambitious). A LETS system is person to person system whereas a B2B mcc system can also loan money (see WIR Bank)
Diversity is the Fuel of EvolutionThere is no reason to choose one form of alternative currency system over another. The credit union can set a generic policy for how new alternative currency systems can be plugged in. It's not the role of the credit union to
create such systems, only support them.
Quote from: error on September 10, 2007, 11:21 PM NHFT
A "real CU" for their "fake money"?
Obviously the primary use of a credit union is to handle USD.
One of the most important things any alternative currency system can do to establish itself as "legitimate" in the eyes of the community is to have some bank exchange in it. Ithaca Hours, Berkshares, Calgary Dollars, Liberty Dollars, every successful system is accepted by at least one credit union or bank. Some banks include these alternative currencies with their small business loan programs (ie, as a supplemental, at a lower interest rate as USD, etc), some handle check clearing in these systems, etc.
Further,
when USD crashes, the credit union will be well established to continue serving it's role.
Yes, let's sit down together and discuss this more in depth. I am definitely interested in being a founder.
I will be in Reno next month and have an opportunity to sit down with the president of a credit union there at that time. If I knew what kinds of things to ask him, I could take advantage of the opp.
I sent out an email to Keith asking if we could meet at the Taproom on the 20-22nd and if so which times would work
My schedule is wide open during that time, for those also interested in founding what blocks of time during those three days don't work for you? Can someone more familiar with Manchester suggest an alternative meeting place if murphy's taproom doesn't work out?
The 20th works for me, any time, any place (I live in Manchester, but can drive elsewhere). I am out of town Sept. 21-23.
Ok the 20th then, I'm guessing it'll be easier to find a quiet meeting spot on a Thursday anyway.
Does anyone interested in founding this have time constraints on the 20th?
QuoteIthaca Hours, Berkshares, Calgary Dollars, Liberty Dollars, every successful system is accepted by at least one credit union or bank.
As a member of the e.f. schumacher society and a person who knows Chris Lindstrom (who set it up) personally I have to tell you that the Berkshares are just glorified discount coupons backed by FRNs.
Ithaca Hours and Calgary Dollars are people 2 people LETS barter systems.
Mutualist credit clearing system (as proposed by Thomas Greco) is a business 2 business barter system acting as a paperless currency where credit is extended to those participating...see WIR bank in Switzerland.
I can't be at that meeting. Nor do I have time to help right now but I have worked at two credit unions, have 5 different CU accounts and would love to be one of the first customers.
I can make it.
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 11, 2007, 07:29 PM NHFT
I have to tell you that the Berkshares are just glorified discount coupons backed by FRNs.
I actually find them quite interesting. Businesses can
either use them as Berkshares or take a 10% hit for exchanging them back to USD. I'm not saying I'd prefer such a system, but it's interesting.
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 11, 2007, 07:29 PM NHFT
Ithaca Hours and Calgary Dollars are people 2 people LETS barter systems.
Um, not quite. Ithaca Hours has become a novelty used by maybe only a dozen people regularly. It has never been a LETS though, if you unravel what LETS is you'd see that it's very different.
Calgary Dollars I can't comment on, but it seems very much like Ithaca Hours a decade ago with a bit more government support.
Quote from: EthanAllen on September 11, 2007, 07:29 PM NHFT
Mutualist credit clearing system (as proposed by Thomas Greco) is a business 2 business barter system acting as a paperless currency where credit is extended to those participating...see WIR bank in Switzerland.
That's greate, create it! Get businesses to accept it. There's no reason why the credit union won't be able to exchange it just as readily as it does Liberty Dollars or any other, it's certainly not the role of a credit union to oversee such systems.
I have my own idea for an alternative currency based partly on my experience with Ithaca Hours, including being a board member for a time. I'm not advocating for the credit union to accept
only my system, heck it may never get off the ground. Alternative currencies are far too young and experimental to say one is better than another, only by trying different things and seeing which experiments excel will we move from the realm of endless theories to mainstream usage.
Diversity is the Fuel of Evolution
I can be at Murphy's (or elsewhere) on the evening of the 20th.
Alternative currencies are far too young and experimental to say one is better than another, only by trying different things and seeing which experiments excel will we move from the realm of endless theories to mainstream usage.
True. However, at some point there should be some effort to pull in the same direction. Ask any open-source software developer the frustration of endless forking.
Quote from: picaro on September 11, 2007, 10:33 PM NHFT
I can be at Murphy's (or elsewhere) on the evening of the 20th.
Sounds like Thursday evening works for enough people then :-)
Next question - if not the Taproom, where? I'm largely unfamiliar with Manchester still. I'm guessing the "where" will constrain the "when" within the parameters of Thursday night.
Quote from: picaro on September 11, 2007, 10:33 PM NHFT
True. However, at some point there should be some effort to pull in the same direction. Ask any open-source software developer the frustration of endless forking.
That will naturally happen, too, to a certain extent ;)
From the free market will emerge clear dominant currencies, there'll surely be a few niches filled by smaller ones, and of course systematically any new currency idea could be implemented within the existing framework. This is a clear issue of regulation vs freedom, planned monopoly vs letting the market decide..
This is becoming a bike shed (http://bikeshed.com/) though. A
vast majority of the work to start this credit union deals with the acceptance, investment of, draft clearing, transference, and otherwise handling USD. We can't get hung up on such small details as alternative currencies before we've even started drafting our bylaws.
Heck, we haven't even sent our letter of intent to the state banking commissioner yet.
What kind of sick and twisted person would do that? It would defeat the entire purpose.
Quote from: PowerPenguin on September 11, 2007, 11:52 PM NHFT
What kind of sick and twisted person would do that? It would defeat the entire purpose.
I assume you're referring to sending a letter of intent to the state banking commissioner? If so, for you and anyone who missed the other postings and threads:
In order to process checks, do the check-card thing, handle savings, real estate and auto loans, and a whole slew of other services which
most porcupines need, we need to be either a state or federal credit union. If all you want is to do alternative currencies, not interacting with USD or "banking in a shoebox", then you do not need a credit union.
To call ourselves a credit union without one of these is fraud and is blatantly illegal under RSA 394-B:2 (http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXV/394-B/394-B-2.htm). Under other provisions of state and federal law it is illegal to operate in the manner of a bank or credit union without the authorization given from the state banking commissioner or the federal government even if we were to not handle checks or check cards.
Federal credit union status is basically out of the question, the regulations are far too severe and we'd have little political weight to change them. Under NH State it's quite acceptable, though it'd be good to get some of the more intrusive sections of Chapter 394-B neutered, and again this gives us what we need (acknowledgment as a credit union) to acquire a routing number from the ABA and all the other things we need.
What's more? RSA 394-B:52-a (http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXV/394-B/394-B-52-a.htm) gives state credit unions the same powers and rights as federal credit unions without having to deal with the federal bullshit.
RSA 394-B:4 (http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXV/394-B/394-B-4.htm) makes it fairly clear on how to proceed; 7 or more residents of New Hampshire must send a letter of intent to the state banking commissioner. The letter must state that we intend to form a corporation for savings and loans for the mutual benefit of our members bla bla.
That starts the process.
My guess is that the state banking commissioner will be quite helpful, even if we didn't have political leverage, perhaps going so far as to guide us through the process while not treading too deeply into our pro-liberty/privacy goals. Surprise, some government employees are actually quite helpful. Take town/county clerks for example.
Quote from: ArcRiley on September 11, 2007, 04:28 PM NHFT
Ok the 20th then, I'm guessing it'll be easier to find a quiet meeting spot on a Thursday anyway.
Does anyone interested in founding this have time constraints on the 20th?
I'll be unable to attend on this date as I'll be assisting a company in Maine prepare their products and exhibits for the Common Ground Fair (http://www.mofga.org/TheFair/tabid/135/Default.aspx) (which is where I learned about time banking (http://www.timebanks.org/)). I am definitely more interested in all the alternative currencies/monies/credit systems than another FRN store within existing legal definitions and restrictions. I think it might be very hard to compete with existing institutions. Might want to start something that is not a credit union (another statutory legal term), since there are CU's people could already join.
Quote from: jaqeboy on September 17, 2007, 10:38 PM NHFT
I am definitely more interested in all the alternative currencies/monies/credit systems
You don't need a credit union to deal in alternative currencies. However, most people primarily deal in USD.
The benefit to having the credit union accept them is easier exchanges for mixed currency transactions, accepting businesses will be able to integrate it right into their PoS system and have it "just work". Otherwise many storefronts will find the cost of working with other currencies to outweigh the benefits.
Quote from: jaqeboy on September 17, 2007, 10:38 PM NHFT
I think it might be very hard to compete with existing institutions.
Credit unions are cooperatives, cooperative principle #6 is "cooperation among cooperatives". We'll work with other credit unions to get our collective needs met regardless if we have 100 members or 100,000. Competition between CUs would make them banks.
Since the thread is for creating a credit union, let's have it for people interested in a credit union and move the alt currency talk to other threads.
Ok so it's Murphy's later today (Thursday) at 7pm.
Let's see if we can't make some headway on this.
Here's the URL for the relevant state laws over credit unions
http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXV/394-B/394-B-mrg.htm (http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXV/394-B/394-B-mrg.htm)
I was reading this thread and the idea of a Porcupine credit union is very exciting to me and I notice the last couple of posts were from last month. How did the meeting go? Any updates on this?
The banking commission people were positive, but not fully aware of the laws they enforce. Told us to hire a lawyer. >:(
Other alternatives for assessing feasibility are available before hiring the (inevitable) lawyer.
There is rumored to be a credit union restricted to NH farmers which has limited/no federal entanglements. We need to find its name, consult with its founders, and use its bylaws as a template.
ArcRiley is shouldering most of the work dealing with bureaucrats. He would know specifics.
The project would be helped immensely by a lawyer willing to work for cheap/free. :-\
A freedom oriented Porc "banking" instution has been a dream of mine for a while.
While I'm trying to organize Liberty Dollar Associates into a team right now (see my other posts), my wife has requested that I get a lawyer's opinion on the legal requirements for such an institution.
So I'm going to be paying a lawyer (hopefully an FSP laywer like Evan Knappen) to look into this ANYWAY, probably as early as late-November.
Besides the general "What does it take?", what specific questions would you like answered? I like the idea of being a state CU vs. a Fed CU, but besides that, what did the state officials say you should get a lawyer FOR?
Ask me now, or forever hold your peace (because I'm not paying a laywer TWICE!).
And about the start-up capital...we're going to buy a house in the Spring, and the idea is to live in it for two years, fix it up, and sell it for tax-free profit. Do this 2-3 times (or 2-3 people doing it at once) and you have your start-up capitial for the Credit Union. (That's how I paid off my new car right before my move to NH.)
Thank you to ArcRiley for spearheading this push- let me know what you want lawyered!
Shuvom
What has become of this project? Is anything still happening with it, or is it dead? :(
It would be nice to have a Porc get a job at a C.U. and learn the biz from inside, then start our own. Maybe Lasse (?).
I tried to do this back when we started this thread and they wouldn't hire me :'(
Maybe I'll try again in NH.