I respect America, and wish to help take it to the next level

[gu3st.]

I am from Croatia, a country which achieved independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 and suffered a war that lasted to 1995 due to Serbs wanting to preserve Yugoslavia from falling apart (in simplistic terms). 17 years later, Croatia is hosting the american president Bush to celebrate it being invited to NATO.

On one hand I can't help but feel impressed, even if rationally opposed, by what has been happening yesterday and today here. Regardless of all of the evils his decisions has caused, Bush is just a man and he alone could not have pulled the evils that were done by his administration. Everyone is to blame, everyone who ever supported the system that allowed someone like him to become the president, to so irresponsibly fall to emotions stirred by 9/11 and actually initially support Bush in his wars, blindly ignoring the rational consequence of all war: destruction of lives and property, not to mention propagation of hate. Bush is just playing a role he is not supposed to play - he is the wrong man at the wrong time - and it is US citizens which let that happen.

But.. the ideals which Bush is talking about include freedom and free and open markets. Combined with that sentiment and the fact that for quite a while America really was the utmost example of a free society to the world making it economically and culturally so powerful and influential that I, despite being a Croatian citizen, can almost feel more for America than I often do for Croatia. But it is sad that today it is losing this image, and justifiably so. Instead of honestly recognizing the disadvantages of the democratic system it employed, it is corrupting even what little freedom democracy allows for. Corporations are abusing the government to pass anti-freedom laws. Governments are abusing their power in the name of perpetual war against some "terrorist threat" to impose more anti-freedom legislation - in the name of freedom.

Listening to Bush it amazes me to realize that despite these contradictions, he actually does believe it. At the same time this compells me not to hate him, not to point fingers at him solely. I have to point fingers to everyone individually who has let this happen. Government has its power only because people keep conceding to it and supporting it. Because they, like Bush, keep *believing* into the illogical.

Where is the hope?

Well, it seems that the hope is in New Hampshire. And that's why I joined this forum. If it weren't for my friend from USA with whom I've spent many hours debating, I would probably warring in myself between my like for american culture and my utter dislike for everything else american. But instead I can now see through the crap and realize that america still has a chance, and it has at least a few years of its history to point to as example of when it really was a beacon for the world. So I am compelled not to hate, but to embrace the americans gathering here as we try to build freedom once again, and do it right this time.

I might even, at some point when able, move to New Hampshire myself.

Cheers

[Dave Ridley]

zasto ti si "guest?"

nego...dobro dosli

[David]

Wonder why he left so soon?   

[memenode]

Hvala, pozdrav. Thank you for the welcome. I didn't leave.. but.. It occured to me it might be a good idea to use a different nickname here. The one above isn't anonymous at all (google it).

This "gu3st" might be only temporary.. hmm.. I feel awkward now. I wont re-register again immediately though to be able to participate in this thread.

Am I too paranoid?

[Puke]

Am I too paranoid?

Probably.

[John Edward Mercier]

No, but a little bit confused.

The murder of 3000+ innocent people should stir emotions...

Corporations begin their lives as small businesses (even WalMart started as a single store in Arkansas), and they fall (KMart was overcome by WalMart and went into bankruptcy). Companies... corporate or other... succeed through business practices that the free market supports. If it didn't success would not occur.

The presevation of corporate interests are more tied to a flaw in centalized power and finance... along with strong union support. Neither the investors, BOD, high ranking officers, middle managers, or unionized hourly employees wish for the corporation to dissolve... so they work as a team to overcome competitive forces... through the wrongful use of government.

The use of military force is for two reasons... first is to justify the expense of such. Secondly, to support US interests as first begun by Jefferson and expanded to Middle East under JFK and successors. So the 'War on Terror', is more correctly the 'War to Keep Oil Priced Low'.

[memenode]

The murder of 3000+ innocent people should stir emotions...

I am not saying that it shouldn't. I'm saying that people shouldn't let their emotions be abused to control their decisions. Among 20 million of people I think there ought to have been more of those who saw through the ensuing war propaganda and realize that this is no way to respond to these deaths - because such response will bring even more deaths. Apparently, there were too few who were saying that or their words simply fell on deaf ears.

And so, 4000 more people died in Iraq alone.

Companies... corporate or other... succeed through business practices that the free market supports. If it didn't success would not occur.

As I understand it the "corporation" as a form of company is given special powers by the government, including amnesty from various kinds of responsibility - which easily gives way to undertaking unfair business practices without paying for their consequences. In other word I think that even the very form of a corporation is a result of governmental intervention and is harmful for the market. I admit I didn't go to great lenghts in exploring the details of this point, but I think the basic and common form of company in a true, unregulated, free market would just be a person who owns a name to a particular business and contracts its use to other people for various purposes (employees, business partners etc.).

In any case, I don't think all corporations succeed *only* because they done well in the market. A lot of it has to do with having political pull or some other sorts of governmental connections - or quite simply, taking advantage of unfortunate imbalances created by governmental intrusions into the natural functioning of the Free Market, which is partly what you seem to be saying below.

The presevation of corporate interests are more tied to a flaw in centalized power and finance... along with strong union support. Neither the investors, BOD, high ranking officers, middle managers, or unionized hourly employees wish for the corporation to dissolve... so they work as a team to overcome competitive forces... through the wrongful use of government.

I fully agree.

So the 'War on Terror', is more correctly the 'War to Keep Oil Priced Low'.

No question about it. The fact still remains that such wars would not be fought if the people didn't support government's power to do so.. Things might seem more complicated on a higher level, only because we've let our governments become so big and hard to bypass, but that's still the fundamental reason which it comes down to. We need to withdraw support.



I am not sure what did you meant by saying I'm a little bit confused?

[memenode]

Thanks Kat for the nick change on the original post! 

Cheers

[PattyLee loves dogs]

Kako si? Moy Hrvatski je los sad. (It's been too long since I used it).

Among 20 million of people I think there ought to have been more of those who saw through the ensuing war propaganda and realize that this is no way to respond to these deaths - because such response will bring even more deaths. Apparently, there were too few who were saying that or their words simply fell on deaf ears.

And so, 4000 more people died in Iraq alone.

Right, I think you mean 300 million people (don't forget our "illegals"  )... and while Americans tend to only count our own dead (which are over 5000 for both Iraq and Afghanistan now), of course the real casualties include hundreds of thousands of poor Iraqis (mostly from the blockade and now, our socialist price control system in Iraq).

It's not just Americans, though... very few people anywhere stop to think about how many of the world's governments are held up by American foreign aid (true, we have to borrow the money from other nations now because we're broke, but then we give it freely to all kleptocrats  )

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few years ago... nothing has changed since I wrote it 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/walker1.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/walker2.html

[John Edward Mercier]

The move to bring murders to justice (Afghanistan) and Iraq are two fundamentally different things.

Corporations are given no special powers... for they are only legal entities. Their limited liability does not preclude those within them from the direct consequences of their actions... just limits liability to those partners having no control.

Corporations are in a sense a broad partnership of individuals with a complex contractual aggreement.
Even in a free market... freedom of association would apply. Corporations formed prior to the government intervention. Government control of a entity for the most part occurs after such entities are well established within social norm.

I doubt Walmart had much political pull as a single store in an Arkansas town... its success was market based. Its political pull the result of its success. The first proceeds the second.

[memenode]

Kako si? Moy Hrvatski je los sad.

Dobro sam, hvala. I am quite well, thank you.

Right, I think you mean 300 million people (don't forget our "illegals"  Grin)... and while Americans tend to only count our own dead (which are over 5000 for both Iraq and Afghanistan now), of course the real casualties include hundreds of thousands of poor Iraqis (mostly from the blockade and now, our socialist price control system in Iraq).

Indeed, there are many more casualties overall.. Come to think of it we could say that it becoming almost a common thing may be what influences people's general ignorance towards the issues..

Here's an article I wrote on the subject a few years ago... nothing has changed since I wrote it   

I'm gonna check them out, thanks.

The move to bring murders to justice (Afghanistan) and Iraq are two fundamentally different things.

What do you mean? Which two things?

Its political pull the result of its success. The first proceeds the second.

Fair enough. It still shows that political pull plays a role. When businesses get big is when they ought to be watched the most, when they are most likely to try and abuse their market position in some way - with government around they have a repository of power they just need to learn how to feed from, which immediately disrupts the natural market forces even further.

[PattyLee loves dogs]

When businesses get big is when they ought to be watched the most, when they are most likely to try and abuse their market position in some way - with government around they have a repository of power they just need to learn how to feed from,

Historically there aren't actually many good examples of businesses abusing market position (most of the "examples" from high school history texts are wrong...) . There are business disadvantages to being too big.

Politically, being big always works. The bigger business can pay the bigger bribe, lobby to found the larger "regulatory" agency (i.e. "competitor control"). The only solution is to separate economy from state as much as possible.

[John Edward Mercier]

You see no difference between Afghanistan and Iraq?

[memenode]

I misunderstood your sentence, sorry. I see what you mean now.

I'm not sure if I agree the difference is really so fundamental though. I am not a pacifist (as I condone personal self defense when necessary), but I don't believe any war (large scale violence led by government against another government's jurisdiction) is ever really justified. How did that war in Afghanistan exactly bring justice for 9/11? By ending up killing more american soldiers and bumping the expenses of 9/11 even further (by increases in money put to military use). It's ridiculous when you look at it from the "justice" perspective, since instead of reparations it resulted only in more destruction of value and life.

[PattyLee loves dogs]

How did that war in Afghanistan exactly bring justice for 9/11? By ending up killing more american soldiers and bumping the expenses of 9/11 even further (by increases in money put to military use).

Uh, it helped Osama escape in the confusion? Seriously, yeah, a lot of us want to see crimes treated as crimes and the criminals hunted down... instead of letting the instigators go live on the Riviera while hundreds of billions are spent bombing huts in Tora Bora.

But governments have a long history of killing everyone but the guilty:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker21.html