bringing not quite so liberty-friendly folks to porc functions

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I don't know, this may be a tangent but...

I'm not exactly sure where my "line in the sand" is, but I'm absolutely sure of one thing. If I ever felt afraid to exercise I right that is CLEARLY documented by the govenrment people, that would certainly be it.

The right to drive a car without a license isn't documented, so while there might be an ethical issue there, there's probably not much legal one. The right to carry a firearm, however, is VERY clearly documented. The right to speak freely is also. If someone is afraid to exercise that, I very honestly believe that's already past the point of no return, the point where I couldn't possibly loose more. I think there's some level of valid criticism of someone who professes to defend freedom and liberty and then doesn't respond when there are very clear encroachments upon liberty, much in the same way I criticize pacifists for putting so much emphasis on human life that they'd not use defensive force to protect a human life.

I think your post kind of epitomized grasshopper's post though. I understand the very real fear of being disappeared for no reason, but I think there's a fatal flaw in that logic. If people are being disappeared when what their do is clearly protected by law, it means law has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection at all.

[FreelanceFreedomFighter]

I understand the very real fear of being disappeared for no reason, but I think there's a fatal flaw in that logic. If people are being disappeared when what their do is clearly protected by law, it means law has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection at all.

Don't get me wrong... I'm a strong believer in the axiom that if you think it's time to bury your guns, it is definitely time to start using them! (Just to clarify, I'm not saying that it is time to start digging OR loading...)

I was just trying to point out that different people, who have similar goals and beliefs, can chose different methods for accomplishing those goals. As you point out, some believe that not getting a driver's license or registering a vehicle or following other governmental laws (that are sometimes outrageous), that those are things which you feel probably don't present any legal issues. You point out that the Right to carry a firearm and the Right to free speech are "VERY clearly documented", so those being violated is past the point of no return.

Well... with over 22,000 "gun control" laws on the books and since both "Campaign Finance Reform" and "The USA PATRIOT ACT" have very strong provisions which limit free speech... And given that the courts hold all the cards, can and have arrested, charged and jailed "violators" of those provisions... I fully agree that we have reached a point where "the rule of law" has no weight at ALL and "towing the line" is no protection.

But my point was and is that the "line in the sand" is different for different people under different circumstances (and even living in different places or at different times). Evidently, your "line in the sand" isn't at a place where you believe that now is the time to be worried about those 1st and 2nd Amendment Rights.

I haven't heard anyone advocate anything other than the nonviolent protests that we all know about, but I do know of people who are very afraid... very afraid of the government and who just do "what they're supposed to do". I think it is extremely brave for those on these forums who have been arrested for their civil disobedience... and we've heard a little about some horrors in the jail system which makes their bravery even more extraordinary; however, as I spoke of previously, I know people who have lived through seeing family and friends enter a "judicial system" to never be heard from again. You (not "you" Kevin, the general "you") say it can't happen here... I say it can and has. There are people who have been picked up, sent out of country and imprisoned for years already... here... in this country... for the "suspicion" of being "associated" with "terrorists". This is known because some of them have finally been released... after loosing years of their freedom for no crime. Fortunately, they didn't end up in a concentration camp where the ovens are in operation, but do we really know that such a thing isn't and hasn't been happening? Are we really certain that the news outlets aren't simply feeding us the news and views that the power elite want us to have? Perhaps even in the case of the "opposing" point of view?

I spoke recently to a woman who grew up in 1930s Germany. She told me that they never heard about the camps, that the news was all either pro-Nazi propaganda or the "opposition" that was controlled by the Nazi's... and that the atrocities weren't told to or reported about to the general population. She only learned of them, basically, after the fact. As I said previously, there were others who lived in Germany present during that conversation with her. Those that did know about the camps and the atrocities said that they only knew because people they knew were effected... friends, family, someone down the street...  As I also wrote previously, I harbor no delusion that most folks who "talk a good game" would "dime out" any one of us if the need were to arise in a jackbooted thug "visit" that was a life or death situation.

So, I guess the question then becomes... where exactly is that "line in the sand" that no one seems to feel has been crossed yet? <- (Rhetorical... not really expecting an answer and not directed as a question to you Kevin...)