MEETING WITH CAPT. JAMES KINNEY of MPD with MARK WARDEN and BILL DOMENICO

[resunltd]

Mark and I made notes immediately after the meeting and came up with this synopsis.

Arrive for meeting with Capt. James Kinney at 2PM December 31st.

Received "official" visitors pass, stamped at 2:04PM

The following is our best recollection:

"Can I ask you a question? Are you guys armed?"  "We have two options we can secure them or you can lock them in your car. We don't allow people within the confines of the bldg to have guns."  We choose to lock them in the car. Is this a question they ask all visitors or only those "flagged as Free Staters"?

We return to the MPD lobby "unarmed"  and are escorted by Capt. Kinney, to his office in "records and professional standards".

I start by mentioning that prior to my testimony at CALEA hearing I was not aware that he (Capt.. Kinney) had spoken to another Free Stater regarding this matter. Eli Israel calls after seeing something on "The Ridley Report". Kinney states that there is misinformation regarding the name of the person on the Ridley video. I let him know that we were not really concerned with the name of the person but rather it is the nature of the "profiling" that we are concerned.

I begin with a synopsis of my testimony before the CALEA hearing. Bottom line somebody is "flagged in house as a possible Free Stater also gang affiliate". I tell him that this is "not good" I repeat, "this is not good". Kinney replies "that, right there may not be good"  continuing that "it doesn't look, sound good for those of you who are Free State project, aah saying 'member, I understand is really not right' it's a philosophy, my understanding, a belief in the role of government". "I learned this from speaking with Eli.

He goes on to say  "Eli kinda believes in the same things that I (Kinney) believe in and most of the people in New Hampshire believe. In fact from what I understand some of the stuff I have learned from Free Staters is the right to be free from government interference."

If you are walking down the street open carrying, 90% or more of the officers are not going to stop you and detain you. They may stop and say, hey, can I talk to you? That type of stuff which is different and if you say no, they will keep going, lacking any other reason to detain you, 90% will just let you go !  We are not perfect but we are trying to educate the officers.

If we get "a frantic" call we have to send an officer to follow up. Mark mentions that "criminals don't usually open carry" and Kinney agrees. Mark points out the "constitutionality aspects of freedom of speech and the right to carry a gun."  Kinney replied that he does not expect the police to "draw down" on somebody open carrying. "You might be stopped" and if an officer says "hello, hey can I talk to you for a minute" this does not represent a detention under the law. You can say "no I am busy, I gotta go".

Mark states, "the armed officers will love that!"  Kinney states, "no they don't like it, as police officers we are authority figures and we like it when people comply with our commands. But we are not always right".

Once again Mark reminds Kinney that open carry is part of the second amendment of the State constitution and that thay have sworn an oath to the Constitution. Kinney says that it "may be irresponsible to open carry in certain parts of the city"

We explain that the Free State Project is essentially like a "brand" one that is known nationally and internationally and that we go out of our way to maintain that we are not promoting some "obtuse, scary line of reasoning"  We do not want the name Free Stater linked to any kind of "wrong doing, law breaking or gang activities".

Mark adds "there should be no negative connotations as far as we're concerned. It is just a group of people with 9000 different personalities. We do not want the police to use the term Free Stater in a derogatory way".

Kinney elaborates, "the person mentioned on the police scanner had been previously interviewed by officers. He has mental health issues and is gang affiliated and a 'self proclaimed' Free Stater with a substantial criminal history. The computer file on this person has a note field where the officers can enter items from their contact suspects. You can call it profiling but I don't believe we do that. It is just a trait or tendency that the officer should be aware of in advance of a contact.

Kinney goes on, "most of his contacts with Free Staters have been very positive, limited but positive. They don't raise their voice or confront you, they are willing to talk." From what I've seen on YouTube, I go to the Ridley Report, I want to see what's going on. We know our officers are on there and if they do something wrong we try to train officers that they "just can't stop anyone anytime for anything. State law won' t allow us to do it. Whether they are armed or not."

Mark reminds, "We are still citizens of a free country. It isn't a police state yet. Although it's heading that way. We are just peace loving folk. Free Staters in general are peace lovers who just want to be left alone." 

Kinney says, " I get a positive image of the FSP from you two. I am concerned about civil liability. I would assume that anybody that is known to be or tells me they are a Free Stater is probably armed."

This statement puts him in agreement with Chief Mara who stated that " flagged in house as a Free Stater means the person is probably armed" I don't want to see the name Free Stater linked with crime for any reason. Kinney brings up the Walker incident saying that "the whole thing could have been avoided"

Kinney mentions,  As for profiling, "I would like to know if I'm going to a call if there is likely to be a gun involved.

I ask if Mark and I will be flagged as Free Staters as a result of this meeting? He say's no. I ask him if under RSA 91A, Citizens Right to Know, if he can provide a list of anyone "flagged as a Free Stater?"

Kinney says, "He might be able to search for this information. You could also provide us a list of all your members names to search against."

We laugh and remind him that we would never agree to that. He puts Marks name in the computer an shows us the screen data as an assurance that there is no "flagging" on his info.

Mark hands Kinney a short hand out sheet showing some general facts about Free Staters and the FSP.

Kinney asked, "what can I tell my officers about the FSP in two minutes.

Mark states, "We are not a gang, there is no initiation, there are no dues. It is a very loose ad hoc kind of organization.

Kinney asks, "What's this porcupine thing" We explain PorcFest to him. We also explain that many Free Staters are "natives" of New Hampshire.

We stress that we do not want to be profiled as "always armed"

Kinney says that recently most contact with Free Staters has involved armed individuals.

Mark say's "that is because police have been going after individuals because they are armed."

Kinney mentions that prior to becoming Murphy's, the Omega club was a pretty dangerous location. Now that it is Murphy's and frequented by FSP members it is "one of the safest places in the city."

Kinney starts to wrap things up by saying, "I don't want you to think I am just blowing smoke with my responses"

Mark comes back with our dissatisfaction with the resolution of the Ryan open carry complaint brought up before the CALEA hearing.

Mark and I thank Capt. Kinney for his time and offer to provide a line of communication open with him in the future.

We get to keep our visitors badges as a souvenir.

Total elapsed time of actual meeting, about 50 minutes

[Dave Ridley]

awesome report.

we need you taking notes in other places where recording is restricted, like some courtrooms

[J’raxis 270145]

Cool, thanks for posting this.

I'll condense this down into a couple paragraphs and make a video for it—probably just of text—so people who might be following the YouTube videos and aren't aware of our forums can be kept updated.

[KBCraig]

"Can I ask you a question? Are you guys armed?"  "We have two options we can secure them or you can lock them in your car. We don't allow people within the confines of the bldg to have guns."

If "the bldg" is not a court, then "we" have no authority to not "allow" people to have guns.

I realize y'all wanted to have this meeting, so I'm not condemning you at all for securing your guns in the car, but you might want to ding Kinney with this bit of law:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xii/159/159-26.htm

159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State. –
    I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
    II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, or firearms supplies shall be null and void.

Source. 2003, 283:2, eff. July 18, 2003.

If the building is not a court, there is no statute allowing MPD to disarm everyone who enters the building. They're specifically forbidden to do so by state law.

[AntonLee]

I'm a free stater, I'm frequently in NH, I don't own or carry a firearm.  So much for their profiling.

[KBCraig]

Yeah, they apparently forgot to include the large number of pacifists in their "profile".

[AntonLee]

I wouldn't be classified as 'pacifist' either.

[William]

"Can I ask you a question? Are you guys armed?"  "We have two options we can secure them or you can lock them in your car. We don't allow people within the confines of the bldg to have guns."

If "the bldg" is not a court, then "we" have no authority to not "allow" people to have guns.

I realize y'all wanted to have this meeting, so I'm not condemning you at all for securing your guns in the car, but you might want to ding Kinney with this bit of law:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xii/159/159-26.htm

159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State. –
    I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
    II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, or firearms supplies shall be null and void.

Source. 2003, 283:2, eff. July 18, 2003.

If the building is not a court, there is no statute allowing MPD to disarm everyone who enters the building. They're specifically forbidden to do so by state law.

Fantastic. Next time it's on.

[TackleTheWorld]

Kinney elaborates, "the person mentioned on the police scanner had been previously interviewed by officers. He has mental health issues and is gang affiliated and a 'self proclaimed' Free Stater with a substantial criminal history. The computer file on this person has a note field where the officers can enter items from their contact suspects. You can call it profiling but I don't believe we do that. It is just a trait or tendency that the officer should be aware of in advance of a contact.

I wonder if police were called to deal with a crazy who thought he was the president of the united states they would call for back up saying, "We've got a possible president of the united states here!"
?

[Coconut]

I wonder if police were called to deal with a crazy who thought he was the president of the united states they would call for back up saying, "We've got a possible president of the united states here!"

?

I would think they'd say that every time they head into da hood now.

...

don't hurt me.