Civil Dis roundtable

[TackleTheWorld]

The newest FDR episode 1544 features Stef, Wes, Brett and myself.
Civil Disobedience Roundtable

Does it attract attention?  Is it effective?  What would work better?

[thinkliberty]

Cool!

I thought it was entertaining.

[PattyLee loves dogs]

Can you link me I can't find it. Thanks,  :grommit:PL

[Kat Kanning]

It was blue on a blue background, so a little hard to see:

http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1544_civil_disobedience_conference.mp3

[Kat Kanning]

I enjoyed listening to this Lauren.  It wasn't boring.  The only part I didn't like was deviations off into phychobable (Wes) and families (Stefan).  I tried to post this response on Stefan's site, but couldn't.

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This is a response to the Stefan Molyneux, Wes Bertrand, Brett Veinotte, Lauren Canario roundtable on Civil Disobedience.

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Thanks for the interesting discussion! I especially liked Wes' comments on one person disobeying/questioning authority causing others to do likewise.

My main comment I wanted to make was on whether civil disobedience has been effective historically. My answer is yes, it has. Gandhi and Martin Luther King got exactly what they were after. Unfortunately, their goal was not 'more freedom', it was 'Indian self rule' and 'civil rights'. They most assuredly achieved these goals. The problem was misidentifying the goal which would get them more freedom (whether by their own error, or by outside intervention, I don't know).

I do believe that civil disobedience is a powerful tool for bringing about a voluntary society. Moreover, it is one of the few moral tools for bringing about change. Another such tool is what you Stefan, Wes, and Brett are doing - disseminating information. In a way, civil disobedience is just another way of disseminating information, but it is a much more immediate and powerful method than talking. When writing they tell you to 'show rather than tell'. Civil disobdience shows rather than tells, and it forces people to choose. They either have to question their previous beliefs and ask 'why is this person who wasn't hurting anyone being beat up/arrested?', or they must try and defend an indefensible position, such as, "Lauren needed to be locked up to keep us safe."

Thanks for all you guys are doing!
Kat

[TackleTheWorld]

Good point about actions getting more attention than words. 
Case in point:  in response to evidence of effective CD I made the same point as you on the FDR board: that CD isn't a freedom philosophy, it's a tactic that can be used by any philosophy.
Then offered this list and asked what the most convincing event was.

    * Thoreau's war protest was picked up and amplified by the Vietnam war protesters and the back-to-the-earth movement.
    * Mother Jones' gave unions a reputation for being poor and exploited underdogs that they still have today.
    * Rosa Park's protest of segregation sparked thousands to demand legislation for equality, and they got it.
    * The Embassy of Heaven's protest of drivers licenses has created a group of people who are immune from having state license plates on their cars.
    * The Keeniacs protest of cannabis prohibition in effect lifted the prohibition and scores of people smoked in public with no punishment.
    * The Free State Project's protest of big government has filtered the anarchist crowd to Keene, New Hampshire.  They produce video, radio and newspaper and numerous websites, mostly highlighting CD.  At least 27 people have moved to Keene to support the movement.


I got no answer.

[Tom Sawyer]

The "Velvet Revolutions"

Smile-ins, wearing a solidarity color... didn't break the law, so people could do them in totalitarian places... but, were definately CD in the sense it was subversive.

"The Singing Revolution" they broke the law... toppled the regime.

I contend that instead of having to defend the effectiveness of CD and peaceful resistance... the reverse is necessary, violent resistance has been less effective and often leads to worse outcomes. Oh... not forgetting... a whole lot more death and destruction, for all sides of the conflict.

[Jim Johnson]

Does it attract attention?

Yes

Is it effective? 

Yes, if your message gets out.

What would work better?

1)  Having 51% of people willing to vote for freedom?  This is possible, but unlikely.
2)  Having 10% of people willing to kill for freedom?   Effective, but does not end in freedom.
3)  Having a large number of people who will ask, "How does this affect my freedom?", before they obey?  Not possible. 
4)  Having a number of people who will stand up for you when you civilly disobey for freedom?  This causes discussion and may effect some change as a result of possibility 1.

Ten individuals civilly disobeying on their own for freedom won't change anything.

[Russell Kanning]

Ten individuals civilly disobeying on their own for freedom won't change anything.

well ... maybe it won't change everything
but it has to change something .... even just the minds of a few people looking
whether that leads to further action .... 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ten individuals civilly disobeying on their own for freedom won't change anything.

One individual's CD moved me to get involved with you crazy bastards... Russell
One individual's CD turned us into your friend... Lauren

Ripples that affect the world around us. Didn't change the laws... but gave action to ideas... created a rallying point.

Keene NH as a focal point is all directly linked to a few people's actions that created a chain reaction to what is now.

[firecracker joe]

when i saw how russell & Lauren dared stand their ground with the system then ian and all the others lately I have showed my support from afar and spread the word of standing up to  the leo's I dont feel so alone now however i still am getting convicted of dumb ass laws  but i welcome all to come to the the free state and stand up for their human rights. thankyou all free staters to coming to my state and keep up the CD. FIRECRACKER JOE

[Jim Johnson]

I'm glad everyone is in favor of #4.   

[Russell Kanning]

you guys are all crazy
i mean politically inept
i mean
oh never mind