Breaking the Glass Ceiling - Freedom for Women

[9thmoon]

So few people --men or women-- will ever approach the upper levels where any "ceiling" might be found, that it's just not something 99% of the people will ever encounter.

If sexism keeps women out of the highest levels of management, then what kind of  "-ism" is it that keeps the vast majority of men from moving to those levels?

Kevin

I have always felt that the "glass ceiling" issue was misnamed, for exactly this reason.  My place in the corporate heirarchy is nowhere near the ceiling, but I still make 15-30% less than my male counterparts, though I have twice the experience.  Friends have told me that, because I'm not male, I don't know how to play the promotion game - like wearing a watch and shoes one step down the $ladder$ from the boss'.  They say that because I'm female, I'm more likely to be a team player, to not shit on other people, thus shooting myself in the foot when it comes time to promote myself in some invisible cut-throat competition that apparently surrounds me all through my working day.  They also said that no man will admit it, but they won't promote a woman until she's past her child-bearing years, for fear of losing their investment when she quits to have babies, as all women inevitably will. 

***edited to clarify that I'm the one with more experience, not my male counterparts.

[AlanM]

To live in the corporate world is to prostitute oneself.

You are so right.? Every one has his (or her) price.?

However...

Wealth can be achieved within the confines of Freedom.

Confines... of... Freedom?? Is that a bit of an oxymoron?

I should have put it another way. Perhaps: Wealth can be achieved while remaining free.

[KBCraig]

Wealth can be achieved within the confines of Freedom.

Confines... of... Freedom?  Is that a bit of an oxymoron?

Alan has already responded, but here's my take:

Yes, Freedom can be very constraining in an unfree society. Cutting off all one's shackles is spiritually freeing, but limits what one can and can't do.

Take our intrepid hosts, for instance... by freeing themselves from "the system" of income taxes and social security, they've greatly limited their income potential. I know their business is physically and spiritually rewarding, and the freedom is exhilirating, but cash-wise, lawn work probably doesn't compare favorably to CPA and computer programming careers.

When a Freedom lover shrugs off the government requirements for identification, freedom of travel and movement take a big hit. Likewise for ordinary financial transactions like renting videos.

And of course, rejecting the Federal Reserve system is very constraining.

I imagine that those who step outside the system would argue that it's worth it, and I would agree. But there are sacrifices required to enjoy Freedom. "Constraints of Freedom" seems like a perfectly good phrase for making people aware of what is required.

Kevin

[KBCraig]

Back to the subject at hand....

Who cares about a glass ceiling, when you can enjoy the silicone valley? 

[Kat Kanning]

LOL!

[free55]

Had a long reply, but decided against it and deleted it...

We'll never make progress on fixing an issue if we never can admit that there's a problem.  I wonder why a group so focused on freedom think it's not serious when women express that they feel constrained and not free in our society.  Instead we suggest how much fun it might be to engage in prostitution, or wiggle boobs at each other.  We just proved her point.

What does it say about us other than maybe we act like teenagers with too many hormones surging around sometimes?

[cathleeninnh]

When anyone expresses discontent, my response to them is don't complain, do something. I know some people view others through tinted lenses, but don't we all? I have placed myself in a very satisfying place among people I respect and who respect me. I am not a victim.

Cathleen 

[Russell Kanning]

What does it say about us other than maybe we act like teenagers with too many hormones surging around sometimes?

This is an internet forum .... with very little moderation ..... it could be a lot worse.
The comments might be coming from teenagers for all I know.

[Kat Kanning]

When anyone expresses discontent, my response to them is don't complain, do something. I know some people view others through tinted lenses, but don't we all? I have placed myself in a very satisfying place among people I respect and who respect me. I am not a victim.

Cathleen 

Most excellent post, Cathleen.

[Pat K]

I don't belive a women needs my help, unless of course she asks.

[KBCraig]

In response to no one in particular...

Each of us has a ceiling of some sort. More often than not, it's a limitation of our own abilities or desires.

Personally, I'm often asked why I haven't worked within my degree, nor taken advantage of it. "I don't want to" is my self-imposed ceiling. Incidental to that is the fact that I hate moving; my employer favors mobility over ability when it comes to promotions, and a "promotion" would mean moving to a higher cost of living -slash- lower quality of life area, a net loss of thousands.

I've seen many, many co-workers who feel entitled to promotion, and yell discrimination if they don't get it. They seldom respond well to "Because you're a whiny little narcissistic shit, that's why!" Rather than accepting constructive criticism, they blame glass ceiling/racism/sexism/ageism/abilitism/otherism/*ism, and spend more time filing EEO cases than in developing themselves into more valuable employees.

I can state empirically that I've been the victim of discrimination, even though I'm a white man with a college degree. 'Tis neither here nor there. Those doing the hiring, firing, and promoting do so for their own reasons, which is as it should be. It's sad that their reasons include looking out for themselves first by creating a portfolio of "wimmenfolk and coloredfolk I helped", but if that helps them move on up, then I guess those are the rules if you choose to play by them.

I don't.

Kevin

[Kat Kanning]

Look at someone like Katherine Albrecht.  She doesn't go around whining, "Oh boo hoo, men have done this to me, so I can't get ahead."  She's just out there tackling some of the biggest corporations in the world in her quest to maintain some semblance of privacy in our society.  THAT's the kind of woman I admire.

[Kat Kanning]

Yes, Maureen Dowd, men are necessary

LORI BORGMAN/Knight Ridder Newspapers | December 2 2005

There are a lot of things I sometimes think I'd like to be, but a man is never one of them.

Talk about a group maligned, vilified and marginalized.

For the most part - abusers, perverts and slackers aside - most men are stand up guys. They work hard. They create, tinker, build, engineer and achieve. They take carping, criticizing and complaining on the chin, and rarely get the thanks they deserve.

And now comes New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd's new book asking "Are Men Necessary?"

In the name of equality, I hope there will be a future release titled, "Is Maureen Dowd Necessary?"

Ms. Dowd needs $25.95 and 352 pages to answer the question as to whether men are necessary.

This Mrs. needs no cash and will answer the question in fewer than 500 words.

Are men necessary?

Yes, absolutely, positively yes.

How do we need thee? Let me count the ways:

The primary reason we need men is because they are not women. ("Hallelujah Chorus" should be sung here.)

Not that the feminist movement didn't try to make men into women. They gave it their best shot over the years, nudging boys to trade in their cowboy hats and chaps for dolls that wet and Suzy Homemaker ovens, and urging men to get in touch with their softer side, emote more frequently and turn from being brutes and oppressors.

Some men accepted the upbraiding without blinking. Others simply said, "Huh?" or "What channel is the game on?"

As feminism evolved, it split into two camps. Equity feminists focused on the need for equal pay and equal opportunity. Gender feminists ("A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle)" carved out the disposability of men and abortion rights as their hallowed ground. Today, gender feminists use words like herstory instead of history and make visits to the wymyns room.

Through sheer strength and frequent spikes of testosterone, men have managed to survive. And a lot of women are glad they did.

Men are necessary because men complement women.

Men protect.

Men provide.

Men take responsibility.

Men tend to be steady.

Men temper womens' concerns for security and safety with a sense of adventure and risk.

Men teach boys what it means to be male.

Men and women together can accomplish what neither is able to accomplish alone.

Men tend to be direct and have simple needs; chief among these would be food, love and respect, though not necessarily in that order.

And ladies, this seems like a good place to mention Relationship Tip No. 37: Do not attempt to turn your man into your girlfriend. Do you seriously think shopping is going to be his thing?

Last year in our nation, 1.5 million babies were born out of wedlock. These children have no "man of the house," no dad who wants to marry mom. Statistics say the overwhelming majority of these kids will be at risk for a variety of dangers and behaviors. In simple terms, life is going to whoop the stuffin' right out of a great number of them.

Are men necessary? Very much so. It is a tragedy we have spent so long telling them they weren't.