Guns and ammo for sale

[KBCraig]

My revolver is from somewhere between 1918 and 1921. Does this mean that in a couple of decades, I can at least have an *il*legal antique?

To be an antique (by the federal definition), it has to have been made before January 1, 1899. Contrary to popular belief, a firearm can never "turn" antique by being 100 years old, or whatever. It either is an antique already, or never will be.

Sorry to dredge up this weeks old thread but:

Kevin,
I just had reason to wander into atf.gov and saw this paragraph.

Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. However, if your C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removal from the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branch for evaluation and a formal classification.

How does this relate to what you said above?

Antiques and C&Rs are two different things.

From an ATF publication:
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term "antique firearm" means—
...(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion  
cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica --  
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol,
which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which
cannot use fixed ammunition.  For purposes of this subparagraph, the term
'antique firearm' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm
frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading
weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire
fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any
combination thereof.


(The second half of paragraph C is for guns like the Thompson/Center convertibles, which can not only change calibers, but can change from fixed ammo to muzzleloader with just a quick (30 seconds or so) change of the barrel. There's even an inline ignition muzzleloading AR upper available.)

So in short, anything made before 1/1/1899 (no matter what kind of ammo or ignition system it uses), or a modern reproduction that does not fire commercially available ammunition (and can't be readily converted to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition), is not a firearm under federal law.

Curios & Relics, though, are firearms. They just happen to be classified as collectible, which means C&R FFLs can acquire and dispose of them in interstate trade for the purpose of enhancing their collections. C&R FFLs ("crufflers") are not dealers, and aren't allowed to engage in the business of selling firearms. They can sell, and even make profits, they just can't "engage in the business".

A C&R is any firearm that was manufactured more than 50 years before the current date. Or, any firearm that has been determined to be collectible by a museum curator, or placed on "the list" by ATF. ("The list" is long and includes many entries that are a specific gun by serial number; most of them would be C&R by age anyway, but they never purge "the list".)

The exception (not by law, but by ATF ruling) is that military firearms that are not in their "original military configuration" are not C&R no matter how old they are. Meaning, those surplus WWI rifles that were sold for a buck apiece and sporterized, aren't C&R despite being over 90 years old. This is contrary to a plain reading of the law, but ATF has never been accused of following the intent of either the law or the Constitution.

On the upside, there are many Mausers and Lee-Enfields dating from the 1870s-1890s that fire exactly the same ammunition as those in modern production. A Mauser in 7mm or 8mm, or a Lee-Enfield in .303 British, made in 1899 is a firearm; one made in the same factory on 12/31/1898 is an "antique", and can be purchased interstate without an FFL, and even be sent through the mail. It is not a firearm under federal law.

Same for Martini-Henrys in .303, Winchester 94s in .30-30, Colt SAA in .45 Colt, and dozens of other "antique" models in calibers that are still in modern production.

(Machineguns are always machineguns, no matter when they were made, though. Sorry, no Maxims without the Form 4 and $200 tax stamp. )

Dunno if that clarified your question, or just piled on the ATF bamboozlement.

[Pat McCotter]

Perfect KB! A quick search of ATF site didn't give up a "Definitions" antique" page.

I did find out, though, that state AWB bans override C&R FFL, no? CT doesn't like the Yugo SKS I want; but then again, it is not on the C&R "List" either - just the Russian, Albanian and one other.

[margomaps]

Perfect KB! A quick search of ATF site didn't give up a "Definitions" antique" page.

I did find out, though, that state AWB bans override C&R FFL, no? CT doesn't like the Yugo SKS I want; but then again, it is not on the C&R "List" either - just the Russian, Albanian and one other.

I'm not sure if you're talking about a CT C&R list or a federal one, but as of a couple years ago the Yugo SKS was definitely considered C&R according to BAFTE.

[Pat McCotter]

Perfect KB! A quick search of ATF site didn't give up a "Definitions" antique" page.

I did find out, though, that state AWB bans override C&R FFL, no? CT doesn't like the Yugo SKS I want; but then again, it is not on the C&R "List" either - just the Russian, Albanian and one other.

I'm not sure if you're talking about a CT C&R list or a federal one, but as of a couple years ago the Yugo SKS was definitely considered C&R according to BAFTE.

OK. I just didn't find it by name on the list. The fed list, BTW.
Also, does the C&R FFL override state bans?

[margomaps]

OK. I just didn't find it by name on the list. The fed list, BTW.

Also, does the C&R FFL override state bans?

My understanding is that the fed C&R list isn't necessarily exhaustive, and provides a clause for items which are of the exact same design/function as something on the list.  My memory is a little fuzzy on this, but I think that's the gist at any rate.  It's the reason why a Yugo SKS was considered C&R even though it wasn't on the fed list.

I don't know for a fact about state bans, but I think it's overwhelmingly likely that the state ban overrides that C&R list.   

[KBCraig]

C&R doesn't override state laws, but some restrictive states do allow "bonafide collectors" to collect things that can't otherwise be bought in those states.

The Yugo SKS is officially classified as C&R; it was included in the update from March 2001 to March 2005:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/0301to0505update.htm

Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947 to 1992.

[Pat McCotter]

C&R doesn't override state laws, but some restrictive states do allow "bonafide collectors" to collect things that can't otherwise be bought in those states.

The Yugo SKS is officially classified as C&R; it was included in the update from March 2001 to March 2005:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/0301to0505update.htm

Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947 to 1992.

Yep, there it is! I must not have done the 'yugo' search on that page.

Thanks KB and margo!

[grasshopper]

wait wait, it has a NATO grenade launcher on it with an adjustable gas valve...

[Pat McCotter]

wait wait, it has a NATO grenade launcher on it with an adjustable gas valve...

Yes, I know. Here in CT it is verboten. Semi-auto, detachable mag, bayonet lug (with folding bayonet !) and grenade launcher.

If I swap the grenade launcher with a muzzle break, it might pass muster, legally, but there will be shudders when they see the bayonet. Just removing the bayonet doesn't do it; the lug would have to be ground off. It just wouldn't be a Yugoslav SKS after either or both of those defilings.

[leetninja]

ha i got a yugo with the bayo and the launcher etc etc etc for 100 bucks coolest thing for a 100 i have bought so far 

[Pat McCotter]

ha i got a yugo with the bayo and the launcher etc etc etc for 100 bucks coolest thing for a 100 i have bought so far 

Do they have any more?!?!?!