anyone interested in 180 or 190 watts solar panels `about $700.00

[MaineShark]

maine guy ya sound interesting...... would like to chat with ya..... I think we both are doers,,,,,.I'll be at social sunday if it doesn't rain..... if it rains then it up in the air.... being a waterfarmer has its ups and downs.....

Right now, things are pretty hectic, as far as driving out to the Keene area.  Someday, though.

Joe

[hydrodog]

Pat .... 450kw....

[Pat McCotter]

Pat .... 450kw....

Thank you. Hopefully I can get up there to see it one day. Are there pictures online anywhere?

[Alex Free Market]

Two questions about off the grid living:


(1) What's the average price of propane per pound or gallon?   I know the price supposedly tracks the price of crude oil, but what's a ballpark figure so I can run some numbers.

I'm debating pretty heavy whether to go with a compact electric refrigerator, or a propane refrigerator.  Tough call.  I can't afford the really expensive and super efficient SunDanzer and Sun Frost refrigerators, so I think I may have to go with a 250 kWh/year to 370 kWh/yr Energy Star compact fridge.  The SunDanzer and Sun Frost models only use a fraction of that power, but the price of them is obscene, and those companies are really pricing themselves out of the market, IMHO... they are losing pitential customers with their absurd pricing.

My hesitation with propane is a number of things:

(a) Firstly, is the whole safety and venting issue.  Really... I'd rather not bother... I question if its worth the extra effort.  I have better things to do with my time than worry about whether my house will burn down when I'm out for the day, or if I'll die from carbon monoxide one night.  This is really my main objection.

(a) Secondly, I just don't like it.  I grew up with electric in my house, so I'm accustomed to it.  I used to make fun of my cousin who had natural gas, whenever I went over his house.  I felt like I was back in the 1950's... having to light matches to use a stove... very, very silly.  I could probably get over this trivial objection, however.

(c)  Thirdly, it's just the idea that if you use propane, your not really "off the grid."  You're still dependent in a way, because you're always going to have to rely on buying it, thus having a steady billy every month.. thus tying you down.  The purist might object to this fact, that it's not truly being "off the grid," but this is probably my least objection.  If I could get away with only having to refill every 2 or 3 months, I can live with it.  Just so long as it gets me through the winter.


On the otherhand, the electric refrigerator is going to kill me power budget.  Refrigrators are not as bad as people think... it definately uses much less power than electric heating, but I did some rough calculations and a 350 kWh/yr compact Energy Star refrigerator is going to need about 4 solar panels of about 120 Watts each to just allow me to squeak by in life. 

I calculated that if I'm lucky... 4 panels will run my refrigerator and let me use the smal laptop computer for about 6 - 8 hours a day, and I can also run about 60 watts of super efficient 12v LED low voltage lighting for a few hours each night.  Thats pushing it, though... thats if I'm lucky.  The fridge is going to suck up about 1/2 my power allotment for the day, and the computer about 1/3rds of my allotment for the day... leaving me with a very narrow margin leftover.  A propane refrigerator is starting to sound better all the time... still... I don't know.


(2) Can anyone give me a lead on where to get factory second solar panels?  I've been looking for 120 - 190'ish Watt panels... but at $4.50'ish per Watt... it's pretty hard for me to come up with that kind of money.  Factory seconds may be acceptable, provided they are not defective and more trouble than they are worth.  I've only seen new panels for sale. 

Or for that matter, if you want to throw me some names of companies that sell reasonably priced new solar panels, that may help.   All the manufacturers seem to pretty much have nearly identical pricing per Watt, and the supposed better panels are really only 40 or 50 cents more power watt.



I'd really like to go micro hydro power.   Dollar for dollar, that is probably (by far) the most efficient home energy source, I think... out of solar, wind turbine, and hydro.... but I can't commit to that, because I don't know if I'll have a stream on my property just yet.  Have not purchased the property yet... That's the kind of thing you don't get into unless you have a guarantee that your going to have a good water source that is fairly reliable for most of the year (if not the whole year, ideally).

[Russell Kanning]

you know the microhydro is also part the grid .... if you don't get any rain you are stuck

[Free libertarian]

 Alex Free Market - Check out Sun Electronics.  They are out of Miami, FL.   I did a LOT of research a few years ago before going off the grid.  I couldn't find any better prices for panels.  I bought six 170 watt panels from them, for just over $500 apiece!   If you do find better prices please post it here. 

Refrigerator - Propane vs Electric.    If you are determined to go with electric consider converting a chest freezer to a refrigerator if you are concerned about your watt consumption.  If you "super insulated" and built an attractive wood cabinet around a chest freezer that had an external thermometer it would make a serviceable and attractive albeit funky fridge.  We started in that direction but later decided to go with a propane fridge... which seemed small at first but it was a damn site better than the cooler we had been using.  During the winter consider putting frozen jugs of water in your fridge to make it more efficient. Just stick a couple of water jugs outside and rotate them every day or so.

Micro hydro? Great Idea but know your stream.  What runs hard in late May, may barely run at all come July...been there.   

A good catalog to get is one from Backwoods Solar...nice people, but still not as cheap as Sun Electronics.

Good luck.

   
 

[Alex Free Market]

Sweet leads on Backwoods Solar and Sun Electronics.  Thanks.  They both had some nifty miscellaneous stuff that I had not seen before.

I was looking into a Danby Propane fridge, as that seems to be the cheapest model made, but now I see that Sun Danzer chest model 12V fridge for only $999 at Sun Electronics. 

I believe I saw the same web site you mentioned..... regarding the guy who built a super efficient chest refrigerator with like two simple modifications.  I don't think I saw explicit directions on how he did it, though... just a kind of vague statement about how he changed the thermostat on it.

[Free libertarian]

Sweet leads on Backwoods Solar and Sun Electronics.  Thanks.  They both had some nifty miscellaneous stuff that I had not seen before.

I was looking into a Danby Propane fridge, as that seems to be the cheapest model made, but now I see that Sun Danzer chest model 12V fridge for only $999 at Sun Electronics. 

I believe I saw the same web site you mentioned..... regarding the guy who built a super efficient chest refrigerator with like two simple modifications.  I don't think I saw explicit directions on how he did it, though... just a kind of vague statement about how he changed the thermostat on it.

There are external adjustable thermostats available. You plug the freezer (fridge) into it and plug the thermostat in.  It fools the freezer into not freezing but instead operating in the temperature range a fridge does...38 - 40 something degrees.  Johnson Controls makes the "external thermostats."  The chest freezer is good because when you open the top the "cool" stays inside (cool air is heavy...doesn't spill out like an upright) .  Super insulate by gluing foam board cut to size, build a wood cabinet and voila...low wattage fridge from a chest freezer! 

     

 

[Alex Free Market]

Think I found the datasheet for device in question.

http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/MET_PDF/2476642578.pdf

Now, I just need to find a resale source for it.  This may be worth a shot. 

Also makes me wonder if I could do the modification to a refrigerator also.  The extra insulation would certainly increase efficiency, though I don't think the thermostat would do much in this case, as a typical fridge thermostat probably can be set to go fairly warm anyway.


---------------------

Some additional information for benefit of others:


An article on the modification for a super efficient refrigerator which is easy to make:

http://mtbest.net/chest_fridge.pdf?PHPSESSID=feb0ab4b98bf5f2600bbc65a17ebbf48


And a company that makes a kit:  (which would be cheaper just to make yourself... but I guess it may be helpful for the 'tech impaired.')

http://mtbest.net/freezer-to-fridge-thermostat.html

The claimed 100 Watts a day in the article seems to be largely dependent upon what model chest freezer your using to begin with, as the basis for the modification.  Naturally, a super energy efficient chest freezer will become even moreso after modification, but a "so-so" mediocre efficiency chest freezer won't perform as well.... though it may in fact benefit more from the modification than starting with a top notch freezer, relative-wise.

[Free libertarian]

 Think of things  like WHERE your fridge will be...it will be more efficient if it's not right next to a woodstove or other heat source.  I haven't done it (yet) but have often thought of cutting a hole thru the exterior wall and sticking a used fridge on a pedestal outside with the fridge door opening to the inside.  Why not let winter's natural cooling help out?   

Another thing that might help you is some of the "electrical panels" and pre made components touted by Alternative Energy retailers might be good, but they are cost prohibitive.   Home Depot sells Square D electrical panels, SOME of which are DC rated and a heck of alot cheaper if you run your house or a few circuits DC direct.   There's also a guy in California that sells big ass industrial circuit breakers (to be used as a safety disconnect between battery bank and inverter) way cheaper than retail...I'll try to remember his name or dig up a receipt and post it here.

[AntonLee]

I like that idea of the outside fridge, but if you're going to still have it hooked up won't it ice over like many air conditioners do in the winter?  I haven't gotten quite that far in my HVAC studies to figure out what to do about that.