Are activists able to debate restoring LP in NH here? Why not?

[SethCohn]

I witnessed the funeral for the LP.
I saw a man weep bitterly for its passing.
I didn't know the deceased very well at all.

And speaking as the man who weeped bitterly, the LP nationally is a mess, and not fixable easily, the LPNH is a mess due to good-intentioned people who don't want to build a political party.

I've given up on LP reforming, I tried and failed.  I'm planning a new party... join me (and others)!

The above bit of politics was brought to you by the letters L, P and the number 5.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled NH Underground already in progress.

[jaqeboy]

..I don't understand why many folks here want to tear down the Libertarian Party. The LP has embodied very pure principles.

It's probably because most libertarians here now perceive the opposite: that the LP has betrayed pure principles (which was predicted by those libertarians that opposed the creation of a party named "Libertarian" at the outset, since that embodied a contradiction.)

Libertarians are opposed to parties getting control of governments to tell other people what to do. Libertarians are in favor of freedom of people from oppressive state institutions, not joining in with oppressive state institutions to make them more efficient, businesslike (common conservative refrain).

At least if candidates are not elected then at least your neighbors hopefully are introduced to another viewpoint that in its essence is respected by thinkers; and you have taken a good stand.

Well-intentioned though this comment is, it's one argument for the party that was propounded in the early 70's when the debate about "whether libertarians should have a party" raged. For lack of a better term, it's the "educational effect" argument. It went like this basically: "We know we'll never get anyone elected, but we'll use the platform it provides us to get the message about freedom out, since we'll get coverage because we're a political party running candidates for election." The obvious contradiction in this is that if you're teaching people, you're teaching them an anti-libertarian message, hence confusing people about your principles. You're teaching, in effect that "You acknowledge it's okay for the state to have power over us, for us to vote by majority on who has power over us, and that we must accept the results if some oppressive fascist gains power over us in the majoritarian selection process. You teach that "We must stay between the lines, we must play by the state's rules, we must beg from the state the right to be a player in the game (elections), etc., etc." I won't bore you with more.

This argument against a "Libertarian" party was intellectually won in the early 70's and a radical caucus was formed to disband the party, but couldn't defeat the unprincipled "reformers" that carried the day in that vote. The RC walked out and the LP went on to completely dilute the libertarian message, pollute the very meaning of the word libertarian in usage and to waste the time, money and energies of "libertarians" for the next 2 generations. The LP was seen by the libertarians as an attack by the state on the freedom movement, since it would have this predictable result in diverting efforts into a black hole, while disillusioning the activists involved into thinking they were "doing" something.

See the pamphlet: "Our Enemy, the Party" for more on the opinion of libertarians re the "Libertarian" Party.

The work performed in the  defense of individual rights as carried by the LP, and that I would posit, is what brought so many of us together in our social network.

I am glad that a lot of us found each other, but your statement presumes that no other efforts would have brought us together.

I agree that many have met and networked through meeting each other at LP events. Many have moved on because they finally caught on to the anti-libertarian and wasteful nature of the LP and retained their friendship ties.

What is needed is other ways for us to find each other and network. Many different approaches are taken, and, if you percieve this to be a real need and a real boon to the movement, you should seek out other approaches or innovate on how to accomplish this social agglomeration effect in a way that's consistent with your libertarian principles.

Liberty as a social policy is almost impossible to achieve and any progress is so fragile. I think this blog membership here needs to a lot more careful. What is the great result when you throw away the LP?

A return to principled actions.

I came to the FS and have been mystified that the LP is abandoned by the prevailing group of so many on this board. Now I see in our numbers it is possible to resurrect the LP in it's framework of purity, but instead less thought out alternatives are propped up and doomed to fail. 

Are we competing to be more absurd and nihilistic with joking about the Kindergarten Party? This appears proposed as a serious idea but no mention of who or what will be the Kindegarten Teacher, or wait, what about the Pirates party, that is really great. Why turn to TV cult personalities such as Jessie Ventura? So easy but ineffective and probably destructive.

If ideas like this cannot be debated here this blog is no better than bad religion.

The consensus (well, the decision of the owners) of this forum was to stop allowing our pro-freedom principles to be opposed actively on this board by the anti-principles of those in favor of parliamentary politics "for liberty". It confused and contradicted the pro-freedom messages.

I'm with you in having disdain for those who spend their energies with joke "parties" - There ARE many here among us who feel that life is but a joke (Dylan). I suppose it serves as a self-entertainment purpose for them, perhaps a release from the difficult realities out there.

PS: The Pirate Party in Sweden (3rd largest party there) have actually gotten people elected to Parliament; Jesse Ventura has created a show that has gotten the highest ratings ever for TruTV (formerly Court TV), "Conspiracy Theory". Both greater successes than the LP.

[error]

I prefer parties with lots of beer and women, and the LP was sorely lacking in both. 

[PattyLee loves dogs]

I appreciate the thoughtful and the funny comments concerning the plight of the Libertarian Party. Your time and patience to explain these matters to me is appreciated. This input is helpful as I am reevaluating my goals and use of my energies as we approach the New Year. Abandonment of the electoral process is understandable within the context of Libertarianism.  I am at this moment considering this. I just have to ponder the consequences of this path if more of us take it.
Certainly it is tragic to plunder one's life in pursuit of illusions but on the other hand, among such committed activists can  hope for libertarian policy be realized within our lifetime? Hopefully, our  activists do find their unfettered individualism and may not have to endure so much derision and jail. Just how to achieve more liberty? Just by civil disobedience and protest?
I agree that a lot of time, Libertarian Party work was a monumental waste of time. Also there were cases of unscrupulous individuals who abused their standing in the LP for their own gain but these problems could have been remedied without abandonment.
Having a space to vote on the ballot was an affirmation of my conviction, winning was not my expectation. Providing a Libertarian alternative position to counter the established destructive policies was often appreciated. Educational  results were achieved.
There could not exist a more practical but virtuous code to base one's life than that which is signed to become a member of the LP: non-initiation of force or fraud to achieve political, or social  goals.

Should the LP be credited for the growth and influence of liberty awareness? For those of us brought through public and parochial schools there would have been no place to entertain these ideas. The internet has been an opportunity for a major expansion of awareness but is this enough for people who have no foundation to weigh ideas?

Despite the design of the branches of government to serve as a check and balance in defense of liberty, the individual has not been protected from an over arching state. Bills violating individual liberty and property rights are passed yielding to favor special interests. Courts frequently abdicate their intended role as a check and balance protecting the individual against imperious legislation. 

The last defense of the individual against, the  juror citizen is currently defended by one of many Libertarian ideas, FIJA .

The Institute for Justice I am sure was inspired by the LP now defends those abused by the state; example includes eminent domain abuse. IJ is compelling the courts to serve their intended role in defense of the individual, case by case.
There are any contributions to my own growth which I learned about through engagement with the LP: Other libertarian spin offs were of important influence such as the publication "Reason" produced by the Reason Foundation.

Activists who reject politics may not be able to appreciate those liberty and free state candidates and representatives working within the current system, like (R) State Rep. Jenn Coffey. These representatives could be accepted by libertarians. I don't believe that these representatives (politicians) have been acting wrong and in fact have advanced your causes within their influence. They receive a paltry salary for their long hours of work and having to go to Concord to vote "NO" so much.
I am watching the work of Ron Paul and the candidacy of Rand Paul. If  Ron was not in office, there would be little counter to big government solutions; and there may be some hope from his bill which passed to audit the Federal Reserve. I am grateful for his involvement. I would aspire to be like him. I do not believe he deserves the derisive attitudes that all politicians are bad.
I hope that with the New Year our growth in activism will not be at such great expense to our selves especially with out  some eventual hoped for results. If no one from our side votes, the other side wins and with civil disobedience predictably will be violence for self defense or by riot.  Ghandi will not help here as violence was instigated by his crowd to achieve his goals; the movie about him failed to portray this.

[PattyLee loves dogs]

Thanks Donnely for link to the New Libertarian Manifesto.

[Pat K]

I witnessed the funeral for the LP.
I saw a man weep bitterly for its passing.
I didn't know the deceased very well at all.

And speaking as the man who weeped bitterly, the LP nationally is a mess, and not fixable easily, the LPNH is a mess due to good-intentioned people who don't want to build a political party.

I've given up on LP reforming, I tried and failed.  I'm planning a new party... join me (and others)!

The above bit of politics was brought to you by the letters L, P and the number 5.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled NH Underground already in progress.

The Seth Party?