"It could never happen here"

[KBCraig]

Good story on packing.org. It's a report from someone who heard a Holocaust survivor speak, and the gradual nature of how their lives got turned upside down.

http://www.packing.org/community/general/thread/?thread=9341

Kevin

[Kat Kanning]

Thanks for posting that.

The officers who arrested us told us, "We're just following orders."  It's clear to me that those people will indeed follow orders, no matter how awful the orders become.   Just like the old playmate in this man's story.

I'm curious, for those of you who work for the government:  At what point will you cease to follow orders?

[cathleeninnh]

I know some will follow orders forever and that concerns me, but I also know that many won't. Most of us have been order followers in the past and to some extent still are. I reached a point where orders conflicted with my sense of right. It wasn't that the last order was too bad but that I had reached a critical point in my soul searching. Like Kat and Russell refusing to "move across the street".

It is critical that we encourage all types of people to examine their conscience.

Cathleen

[KBCraig]

I'm curious, for those of you who work for the government:  At what point will you cease to follow orders?

My only perspective of working for the government is this one job, in this one place. I've never worked anywhere else, nor for any other agency.

That said, I can assure you that most of my colleagues are well practiced at not following orders. The sheer incompetence of mid-level managers has created an environment where line staff will pay lip service to orders, then ignore them and do the job the way it needs to be done. Management is actually aware of this, and doesn't care; they get to give their orders, and in the end they look good because the job is done properly despite their incompetence.

The Bureau of Prisons has historically been something of a reserve force for the U.S. Marshals. We served as DUSMs during the Rodney King riots, and even during some of the forced desegregation battles in the 1960s. It might be different elsewhere, but if you took a representative sample of my co-workers here, sent them to a disaster area and told them to begin Katrina-style gun confiscation, the only casualty would be the person giving the order.

In this part of the country, we're familiar with "hunting accidents", and how someone who trips over his own gun down in the swamps might never be found.

Kevin

[Recumbent ReCycler]

When I was in the army, i stopped following orders when they were contrary to my oath to "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  I took a lot of heat for it, but at least I was able to educate a few people in the process.  I explained to my first sergeant, in front of the entire troop (company) about a person's right to be free from unreasonable search and siesure and how our oath prohibits us from violating the rights of others, even if they are other soldiers.  I made sure that I spoke loud enough that everyone would be able to hear every word I said.  I was asked several times why I was opposed to searches of everyone's vehicles and homes.  "Do you have something to hide?" was repeated numerous times.  I was told that we gave up our constitutionally protected rights when we enlisted.  I responded that I never gave up mine.  The 1SG and several other NCOs told me that I took an oath to obey the orders of those appointed over me.  I responded that they also took an oath to support and defend the constitution, and that violating another's rights is a breach of their oath.  I also told them that since the orders were in violation of their oath and the constitution, they were unlawful orders, which nobody should be compelled to obey.  I was able to change a few minds, but the 1SG was too stubborn.  In the end, my squad leader, platoon sergeant, and shop NCO came to my house.  They were some of the best NCOs that I had over me while I was in the Army, so it was difficult to tell them that I would not let them in the house.  When I answered the door, I was armed and told them not to come in.  They told me that the 1SG had told them that if I didn't let them in, that they were to write me up for article 15 proceedings.  We negotiated, and I agreed to let them in as long as they didn't touch anything.  One NCO in another platoon went to one of my friends' house with my friend, and as soon as the door was opened, the NCO went to the bedroom ahead of my friend and started looking through drawers.  The commotion woke up his wife, who immediately grabbed a gun from beside the bed and pointed it at the NCO.  My friend saved that NCO's life by telling his wife not to shoot him, because she was about to pull the trigger when he intervened.  She hadn't been warned, because most of the soldiers weren't allowed to call home before the searches.  The reason that the 1SG gave for doing the searches was that a soldier was caught in the barracks with a pistol.  It's too bad that most Americans, including many who gave an oath to support and defend it, have no idea what the constitution of the US says. 

[Russell Kanning]

That seems like the only reaction to have in the Army. Why should you give up your rights while in there?

I was thinking ..... how many German government workers quit their jobs as things got worse?

[Lloyd Danforth]

When you take the oath, you pretty much kiss your rights away!

[Recumbent ReCycler]

When you take the oath, you pretty much kiss your rights away!

How does taking the oath do that?  I don't remember anything in the oath about giving up my rights.  I figured that since everyone who joins the army takes an oath to "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", rights should be supported and defended, not suppressed.  Unfortunately some people let the power get to their heads when they get up in rank, and feel that they can violate the rights of whomever they want.  I was originally planning to stay in for 20 years and do things the right way, but unfortunately my injuries were too serious for me to be able to stay in and succeed.  If your knees are too messed up to run, your shoulders and elbows too messed up to do pushups, and your back too messed up to do sit-ups, then you can't pass a PT test or get promoted.

[dpagan]

Thanks for posting that.

The officers who arrested us told us, "We're just following orders."  It's clear to me that those people will indeed follow orders, no matter how awful the orders become.   Just like the old playmate in this man's story.

I'm curious, for those of you who work for the government:  At what point will you cease to follow orders?

My first real post besides my welcome post. Well I am an Army National Guard citizen-soldier who like about almost everybody in the military was deployed to Iraq. I believe that most people in the military would follow almost any order given to them because they are afraid of retribution or being imprisoned and most have families and working for the military provides for their families. I know that if I were ever ordered to do anything against civilians or that is wrong I would disobey.

[Lloyd Danforth]

When you take the oath, you pretty much kiss your rights away!

How does taking the oath do that?  I don't remember anything in the oath about giving up my rights.  I figured that since everyone who joins the army takes an oath to "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", rights should be supported and defended, not suppressed.  Unfortunately some people let the power get to their heads when they get up in rank, and feel that they can violate the rights of whomever they want.  I was originally planning to stay in for 20 years and do things the right way, but unfortunately my injuries were too serious for me to be able to stay in and succeed.  If your knees are too messed up to run, your shoulders and elbows too messed up to do pushups, and your back too messed up to do sit-ups, then you can't pass a PT test or get promoted.

No! Your rights under the UCMJ superceed your Constitutional rights. This has nothing to do with annecdotal minutinae of someone pulling rank.  Just take the original topic for example.  In the military, you do not have the right to criticize the president.  Doing so is not sedition, obviously, but, you can be charged with it.
As a civilian, you can be late for work, Come late for a formation and you can be charged.  As a civilian, you can negotiate your contract with your employer.  Try that with the military. Try going home without permission.

[tracysaboe]

That seems like the only reaction to have in the Army. Why should you give up your rights while in there?

I was thinking ..... how many German government workers quit their jobs as things got worse?

I know that both physicists Hiesenburg and Heinburg covertly sabatoged their own work so that Hitler wouldn't invent the bomb. But they were to scared of the current regime to quit.

Tracy

[dirk]

Check out  www.mikenew.com

[Kat Kanning]

Yeah, I'd heard about that guy.  He's a hero.