Declaration of Independence: Draft 2

[Caleb]

fourthgeek,

A few comments on your comments. 

If we are seceding, we need not appeal to American values (whatever those are.)

We are still Americans; we have a shared common heritage, and upon seceding, I envision friendly relations with the other 50 states.  I'll grant the point that there is no general concensus on "American Values", but the Declaration, like all other Declarations, must contain some elements of idealism.

not even Jefferson would claim this. The philosophers of olden days said that we are created equal. How we turn out afterwards is subject to nature and nurture. I would argue, however, that  we are not created equal. What proof do you or anyone else have that we are in fact all created equal, both "pauper and President"? If you mean equal in spirit/value, that is complete fluff and means nothing at all.  If you mean equal under the law, this is not true. Bribery, fame, etc. all control government. To deny it is lunacy, to abolish it is impossible. If you mean that governments should be tasked with and expected to treat citizens with equal respect and courtesy, then that I can agree with.

Jefferson said that we were "created equal", true, but I don't think that implied that, after birth, we develop into differing levels of equality.  I would think that "equality" should be understood to mean "ought to be treated equally before Law", which while I will grant you isn't done in practice, once again we are dealing with idealistic portrayal, not hard-core reality.  After all, it is the reality we are rejecting.

I'm not a fan of using the word institution, as it can be applied broadly to mean more than the government itself. Remember how much the Constitution has been misinterpreted.

Perhaps you're right?  What word would you suggest?  I'm trying to get people to stop thinking in terms of, "Well, it's bad ... if only we could elect the right guy."

nitpicking: holocaust sounds better and is more widely recognizable.

I would think holocaust is not only less accurate, but actually misleading.  First of all, (and maybe someone can educate me here), but I'm pretty sure the root of the word "holocaust" refers to "burning" or "fire".  So it would indicate the TYPE of genocide used.  Second, "holocaust" has become one of those words that automatically links people's mind to Hitler, etc., whereas genocide is a word that is more general.  It's up to you guys, though.  The declaration is still in draft form, and I have no intention of maintaining a monopoly on it.

My definition of natural law is "survival of the fittest." This has nothing to do with recognizing corporations as legal persons. ??

Creator might be a bit of an issue too, unless we want our great grandchildren to be debating the merits of a libertarian theocracy, much like we debate various religious issues today. We should try to minimize or remove religionisms just to ensure we don't suffer the same issues.

Yes, this is one of those issues that Libertarians might not like.  I would argue that we need to remember that secession is NOT Libertarianism or Anarchism or any other ideology.  Those battles will still need to be fought, even after we secede.  Seceding is just throwing off the federal tyranny.  And if we want to do that, we will need a broad based concensus, including the liberals. 

One thing libertarians and liberals can agree on is that corporations should not be given status as people, because they are NOT people.  Being a person entitles you to the rights of a person.

Thus, while the wording could be changed ... I think we need to include this in the Declaration.

this is an extremely dangerous paragraph. It can be used to justify any form of collectivism, to abolish capitalism, to destroy the spirit of personal goals and growth, and is completely contrary to one of the many core arguments for libertarianism (greed is good.)

I would word it something more like this:
"Where powerful governments are controlled by business, the shadow of fascism trails not far behind. Where powerful businesses are controlled by governments, the echos of socialism and communism ring.
The unnatural rights and alliances formed between our Federal Government and corporations have combined these political Tyrranies into nearly unbreakable manacles, by which our people are stripped and flogged."

Actually, I like your version better.    Can you take your wordsmithing and spiff up the rest of it?

Thanks for the input.  Like I said, this is a draft Version.  My goal is to spiff it up, and then send it to each of our state reps and Senators, with as many signatures as possible.  Russell says his mom might put it on some parchment paper for us, and then we could get a signed copy with as many signatures as we can and hand deliver it to the governor.

Caleb

[fourthgeek]

I should like to help you with this, but I think there are a million more important things before we start seriously thinking that we can secede. If HB1582 didn't pass, it's a long battle before this thing can even be seriously considered by us.

[FrankChodorov]

not even Jefferson would claim this. The philosophers of olden days said that we are created equal. How we turn out afterwards is subject to nature and nurture. I would argue, however, that  we are not created equal. What proof do you or anyone else have that we are in fact all created equal, both "pauper and President"? If you mean equal in spirit/value, that is complete fluff and means nothing at all.  If you mean equal under the law, this is not true. Bribery, fame, etc. all control government. To deny it is lunacy, to abolish it is impossible. If you mean that governments should be tasked with and expected to treat citizens with equal respect and courtesy, then that I can agree with.

what is meant by this statement is that we are all as humans created with the equal capacity to act moral therefore we can all justly be judged equally in the eyes of the law as to whether our actions are:

1. good
2. bad
3. nuetral

[Russell Kanning]

We could declare our independence from the NH senate also.

[fourthgeek]

not even Jefferson would claim this. The philosophers of olden days said that we are created equal. How we turn out afterwards is subject to nature and nurture. I would argue, however, that  we are not created equal. What proof do you or anyone else have that we are in fact all created equal, both "pauper and President"? If you mean equal in spirit/value, that is complete fluff and means nothing at all.  If you mean equal under the law, this is not true. Bribery, fame, etc. all control government. To deny it is lunacy, to abolish it is impossible. If you mean that governments should be tasked with and expected to treat citizens with equal respect and courtesy, then that I can agree with.

what is meant by this statement is that we are all as humans created with the equal capacity to act moral therefore we can all justly be judged equally in the eyes of the law as to whether our actions are:

1. good
2. bad
3. nuetral

Again, if that's what we mean, we need to say that. Flowery idealisms are great, but nebulous and thus dangerous as political dogma.