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auto costs

Started by Rifkinn, September 29, 2006, 05:21 PM NHFT

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eques

I just filled up my '02 Honda Civic for $2.119/gallon... unfortunately, however, the attendant overfilled my tank and spilled gasoline all over my car.  Yeah... that law that makes it illegal for me to pump my own gasoline really is protecting me... yup.

So, it appears that gasoline in NH will be a bit higher than what I'm used to, but certainly not too horrid (nothing like socal!).

I'm guessing that a broken reverse lamp will cause the car to fail inspection.  What about mis-aligned headlamps?  These are probably things I can fix on my own, but I guess I just haven't gotten around to doing so.

Dreepa

Quote from: eques on October 05, 2006, 09:33 PM NHFT

I'm guessing that a broken reverse lamp will cause the car to fail inspection.  What about mis-aligned headlamps?  These are probably things I can fix on my own, but I guess I just haven't gotten around to doing so.
Depends on where you get it inspected.
When I first moved here the anal inspector had all sorts of problems with my car that I had to get fixed.
Now a year later my blinker didn't work but another station just 'looked the other way'.

Spencer

Quote from: eques on October 05, 2006, 09:33 PM NHFT
I just filled up my '02 Honda Civic for $2.119/gallon... unfortunately, however, the attendant overfilled my tank and spilled gasoline all over my car.  Yeah... that law that makes it illegal for me to pump my own gasoline really is protecting me... yup.

So, it appears that gasoline in NH will be a bit higher than what I'm used to, but certainly not too horrid (nothing like socal!).

I'm guessing that a broken reverse lamp will cause the car to fail inspection.  What about mis-aligned headlamps?  These are probably things I can fix on my own, but I guess I just haven't gotten around to doing so.

Oregon and New Jersey are the only two states where it is illegal to pump your own gas.  Your experience in New Jersey mirrors mine in Oregon.

Here's Oregon's legislative "justification" for prohibiting self-serve of gasoline (I've bolded some of my favorite "reasons"):

Quote
480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

      (1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

      (2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

      (3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

      (4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon's weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

      (5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or is disabled, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

      (6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and the disabled in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and the disabled must pay the higher costs of full service;

      (7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

      (8 ) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

      (9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

      (10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:

      (a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;

      (b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or handicapped who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices
; and

      (c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

      (11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

      (12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

      (13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

      (14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

      (15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to the handicapped, to elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

      (16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to disabled persons at retail gasoline stations; and

      (17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation. [1991 c.863 ?49a; 1999 c.59 ?160]

I've heard that the weather in NH is pretty bad, but I'm glad to know that it is not nearly as bad as my current state, which has a climate that is "uniquely adverse" with the primary danger being "wet pavement."  I look forward to living in the moderate climate of NH, where wet pavement does not appear around every corner (striking fear into the hearts of all -- especially senior citizens and the handicapped).

error

Wow, I can't remember the last time I saw so much legislative stupidity all in one place.

Rifkinn

That whole quote is just unbelievable.  I can't imagine the stupidity of the person or ppl that passed that thing.

Dreepa

I always wondered why they had that law.
Now I know.

Spencer

By the way, New Jersey's "rationale" for banning self-service of gasoline are almost the same as Oregon's (everything except for the "uniquely adverse" weather and the jobs for young people "justifications").

My favorite part of New Jersey's law is the extensive training required to be a gas pumper:

Quote
34:3A-7.     Training, supervision of attendants 
     No person shall dispense fuel at a gasoline station, unless the person is an attendant who has received instructions regarding the dispensing of fuel, had practical experience dispensing fuel under the direct supervision of an experienced operator for a period of not less than one full working day, and, upon examination at the end of that period, demonstrated his understanding of those instructions.  The instructions shall include a full explanation of the prohibitions of section 3 [forbidding the pumping of gasoline into non-approved containers / allowing people to pump their own gas] of this act and any emergency procedures established pursuant to section 8 of this act.

Dreepa

Well of course NJ couldn't be unique because OR is. >:D

eques

I'm going to be a dope and comment on the legislative "justification" you provided... I just can't help myself, I guess.  :)

But, y'know, the full-service law doesn't apply to motorcycles or diesel fuel (at least, not in New Jersey, I don't think).  Oh, sure, you won't find many (if any) elderly or handicapped people driving those sorts of vehicles around, but what about their protection?  I guess they think they're being consistent in some twisted way.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Here's Oregon's legislative "justification" for prohibiting self-serve of gasoline (I've bolded some of my favorite "reasons"):

Quote
480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

      (1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

Hm, properly trained... step 1: open gas cap; step 2: insert nozzle; step 3: select grade; step 4: squeeze handle; step 5: remove nozzle after pumping is finished; step 6: replace gas cap; step 7: pay for gas.  Yeah.  Difficult training process.  I can see why they feel it necessary to regulate gas station attendants--the job is so complex, and so many things can go wrong in the process of administering gasoline that it absolutely blows my mind!

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

I don't know what sort of "undivided attention" these legislators think that gas station attendants give to pumping gas, but I gotta tell ya--the attendant who spilled gasoline all over my car wasn't exactly watching the pump the entire time like you're supposed to.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

      (4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon?s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

Wouldn't the dangers of slick surfaces and the dangers of crime sort of cancel each other out?  ;)

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or is disabled, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

They should put up signs, then: "CAUTION: SLIPPERY SLOPE"

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and the disabled in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and the disabled must pay the higher costs of full service;

Are all senior citizens so weak and frail as to be unable to operate a gasoline dispenser?  What's a "senior citizen" anyway, somebody that's older than 65?  With the exceptions of the very sick, how many "senior citizens" are actually unable to pump their own gasoline?  Granted, some may be unwilling, but that's their own problem.  There's nothing that connects being a senior citizen with requiring full service in my mind.

I can grant their point about the disabled, but I wonder the same sort of thing that I wonder about the senior citizens: how many disabled are actually unable to operate a gasoline dispenser?  I imagine that the ratio is higher than when it comes to senior citizens, but... well, I think the same sort of thing applies: a disabled person or a senior citizen is going to want to assert their independence all the more since it's that much more poignant to them that they are limited in their ability to get around.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

      (8 ) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

      (9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

So, wait, it's okay to increase the exposure to a highly limited subset of the population rather than spreading that exposure out among anybody who wants to purchase gasoline?  How much is too much?  If I am forced, by regulation, to inhale gasoline fumes all day, isn't that far more dangerous than if I merely attend the cashier station and the hazard is diffused over my customers?  I mean, there are hazardous jobs out there, jobs in which people risk their health and their lives to perform tasks that not everybody will do.  Does that necessitate government regulation of such jobs, just because a hazard exists?  I run the risk of falling down the stairs every time I leave or enter my apartment.  Does that mean that the government should regulate an elevator into my apartment because of the hazard?  I run the risk of getting into an automobile accident every time I get into my car to go somewhere.  Does that mean the government should provide me a police escort because of the hazard?

Yeah, I'm setting up some straw men here, but really, this whole notion that our bodies somehow cannot handle any levels greater than zero of toxic substances is ridiculous.  It turns out that our bodies are used to a certain level of toxicity and are able to handle low levels of certain substances over short periods of time.  This doesn't mean that all potentially toxic substances are safe; it just means that we have to have some perspective if we're going to make a law about something.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:

      (a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;

      (b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or handicapped who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices
; and

I think you have to grow up in New Jersey or Oregon to really appreciate it, but I like pumping my own gas.  For better or for worse, I lived in Michigan for three years, and that was one of the small freedoms I appreciated.

I'm not sure how they make the leap from providing different levels of service to "discriminating against customers with lower incomes."  Basically, if you want to be a lazy ass, you get to pay for it.  ;)

As far as those who are actually unable to pump their own gas, I just wonder, again, who does that apply to, and why the hell are they driving? ???

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

      (11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

      (12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

      (13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

      (14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

Yeah, because the gas station industry is a tremendous employer of young people. ???

I don't know how many gas station attendants around here can be considered "young."  Most of them seem to be immigrants of one kind or another.  And hey, bully for them that they got a job, but if they didn't get that gas station gig, then maybe that labor could be used elsewhere.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to the handicapped, to elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

I can't speak to those in the afflicted groups, but I kind of like the smell of gasoline.  I'm a freak.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to disabled persons at retail gasoline stations; and

This certainly doesn't equate to making self-service illegal.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
Quote
      (17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation. [1991 c.863 ?49a; 1999 c.59 ?160]

Oh noes!  Hey, is it the state's responsibility to protect us from our stupidity again?  Yay!

The majority of self-service gas stations I've used have some kind of pay-at-the-pump options, and the cash-only pumps are usually right next to the payment plaza or something.

However, anybody that's driven a car with small children inside knows that the dangerous situation is created by having the small children in the car in the first place!  They are an incredible distraction factor!  It's almost surprising that government hasn't regulated ballgags on the car seats.

Quote from: Spencer on October 05, 2006, 11:35 PM NHFT
I've heard that the weather in NH is pretty bad, but I'm glad to know that it is not nearly as bad as my current state, which has a climate that is "uniquely adverse" with the primary danger being "wet pavement."  I look forward to living in the moderate climate of NH, where wet pavement does not appear around every corner (striking fear into the hearts of all -- especially senior citizens and the handicapped).

New Jersey also has a climate which is "uniquely adverse," except it has nothing to do with the weather--it has to do with all of the insane Jersey drivers and those wackos from NYC.

It's also surprising that NYC doesn't have mandatory full-service stations given that the pavement is always wet there (at least, it is in the movies)!

eques

Quote from: Dreepa on October 06, 2006, 10:54 PM NHFT
Well of course NJ couldn't be unique because OR is. >:D

Well, if New Jersey is the armpit of the USA....  :angel4:

Spencer

I grew up in California (I know, I know, I'm still in recovery), and have lived in Oregon for a little over five years now.  The only thing that is better about California than Oregon is that I can pump my own gas there.  I can't tell you how many hours of my time have been wasted sitting around waiting for some attendant to see my car and pump gas for me THEN see when the gas pump shuts off and come back to take the nozzle out and finish the job.  Usually there is one attendant and about six cars, and he's running around playing musical chairs with our cars.

I would happily pay full-service prices to be allowed the "privilege" of pumping my own gas.

KBCraig

Once in NJ, I jumped out and started pumping my own. This was mostly out of habit, partly road-weariness (and forgetting where I was). The pump jockey ran over waving his arms that I couldn't do that, but the gas was already flowing. We stood there and stared at each other until the tank was full, then he hung up the nozzle and took my money.

As an aside, full service gas in NJ was quite a bit cheaper than self-serve in PA (this was early 1996).

I asked my former sister-in-law (whom we were visiting at the time), why NJ didn't allow self-service gas. She said, "Well, I think they just never made it legal." Rather telling about the NJ attitude, wot?

The difference between NJ and OR, is that NJ's law dates back to the earliest cars, when machines and gasoline were new and scary, and pumping gas was perceived as something for the pros. Truly, they just never bothered to change it.

Oregon, obviously, just made up a bunch of reasons.

Kevin

jaqeboy

Safety inspection requirements from the Division of Motor Vehicles website:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/saf-c3200.html , go down to Saf-C 3202.02 for basic listing, then further in for details:

Saf-C 3202.02  Items to be Inspected.  The items to be inspected on a vehicle, which are described in detail in subsequent parts, shall include the following primary areas:

(a)  Registration, plates, registration certificate and vehicle identification number;

(b)  Steering, front end and suspension;

(c)  Brakes, including parking brake;

(d)  Odometer and speedometer;

(e)  Electrical system, horn and defroster;

(f)  Lights and reflectors, including headlight aim;

(g)  Glass, glazing and mirrors;

(h)  Wipers;

(i)  Exhaust system;

(j)  On-board diagnostic system;

(k)  Body, chassis and bumper height;

(l)  Fuel system; and

(m)  Tires and wheels.

----------
They have a state-wide domputer system now that every inspection station has to be on and they enter your info into that when they inspect. I think it's so if one station fails you and lists the reasons, the next inspection station you go to can't avoid seeing that. Pretty creepy. I think that system may just be a year old or so.