California Stand

[d_goddard]

Italy has compulsory voting [...]
Italians actually have a lot of freedom

I hope you can see the internal contradiction in those two statements.

Also, the second statement is blatantly false.
The people who bitch and moan about GWB should really have a look at what Berlusconi has been up to lately.
I'm not saying GWB is wonderful; I'm saying Italy is LESS FREE than the USA on pretty much every front, but it also has institutionalized corruption.
Nice.

[LocalParty.Org]

Let's refine the answer (both our answers) a tiny bit then. While Italians are 'forced' to go vote, once they are in the voting booth there is plenty of choice... Definitively a lot more than what we've got here. Italians get fined if they don't go vote, so except for a monetary fine you can stay home if you really want to. Alternative if you really don't want to express a political preference is to go vote, and mark the ballot in such a way it becomes invalid: no vote, no fine, just a forced walk to your neighborhood polling place.

Other- Those (options) sound like types of republican government, not democratic.  A democratic government is like a small town in NH, for example.  Whereas, American has a republican form of government.

Don't get me wrong; I think town meetings are definitively excellent ways to address local issues, some of which have far-reaching implications beyond the local community. But modern life is not just local: it is state/federal and global ? whether we like that or not. If there is such a thing as the state level or the federal level, then I want to be able to have my say on that level as well.

And district elections are not doing the job. I would rather vote for ? and be represented by ? a Libertarian from New Hampshire than being denied a local representative here in my district in California because my choice did not make the grade of 50%. I hate being muted all the time, and I consider moving to a district where my kind of guy is in control a more severe restriction than what the Italians have to go through once every four years ? forced to go to their local voting booth. I'd rather have proportional representation, so my voice is actually represented (but I would not insist on compulsory voting).

[d_goddard]

Italians get fined if they don't go vote, so except for a monetary fine you can stay home if you really want to.

You clearly have not learned the fundamental lesson about laws:
All laws are the threat of deadly force for noncompliance, pure plain and simple.

Moreover, the best way to get mobocracy is to force the uninformed to vote.
You cannot use threats of force to make people think; that just Does Not Work.

[FrankChodorov]

we live in a constitutionally limited democratic republic.

winner take all district voting was designed by the founders to eliminate factionalism by concentrating politics into two parties.

[Lex]

You cannot use threats of force to make people think; that just Does Not Work.

Reminds me of the compulsory education system in America... 

[LocalParty.Org]

You clearly have not learned the fundamental lesson about laws:
All laws are the threat of deadly force for noncompliance, pure plain and simple.

I do not agree with the Italians being forced to go vote; I rather have each person decide for themselves whether to go vote or not because I believe in freedom of expression ? and that includes staying home if you don't want to express your opinion at the polls. Yet once the voters in proportional electing nations are in the voting booth, they have the option to express their beliefs a lot better than we do here with our having to choose between a single district winner and everyone else as losers. Forty percent of the voters basically become losers here. A good number of voters here, while having voted their entire life, never got the representative they voted for. And if you can't express your voice on that level, you are muted, left along the sideline as unimportant. I simply demand being represented, that's all, and the simple truth is that currently many of us are not represented.

[FrankChodorov]

I rather have each person decide for themselves whether to go vote or not because I believe in freedom of expression ? and that includes staying home if you don't want to express your opinion at the polls.

the problem with voting as the single expression of MASS democracy is that people are easily manipulated and that breeds cynicism.

it is only small-scale, face-to-face, participatory and DELIBERATIVE bodies (Jefferson's ward republic) that can't be manipulated and is the heart of the civic republican ideal of practicing virtuous behavior as the full expression of individual freedom.

[LocalParty.Org]

It is only small-scale, face-to-face, participatory and DELIBERATIVE bodies (Jefferson's ward republic) that can't be manipulated and is the heart of the civic republican ideal of practicing virtuous behavior as the full expression of individual freedom.

Are you saying that you want to exit the United States and become an independent community? It would not help much. Globalization is here to stay (and may have started as long back as the Portuguese sailing around the world); we are participants on every level: local, state, federal, and global. If you only want to vote at the local level ? that's a freedom you have ? but if you want to participate on the other levels ? that's a freedom that is mostly restricted. By chosing not to participate on the other levels, you give away the remaining freedom of those levels to others ? and I can assure you they (the larger companies, the larger governmental agencies, and the larger special interest groups) are all too happy if you don't open up your mouth.

the problem with voting as the single expression of MASS democracy is that people are easily manipulated and that breeds cynicism.

Well, cynicism has been bred in our 2 party-system more than plenty. Of course full representation is not a system that is going to work just perfectly well after a single election, yet by slowly putting proportional elections in place (for instance, start at the local level first), we can learn how this other democratic system works. And believe me, proportional representation does come a lot closer to how local community meetings function than how the two party system functions; proportional representation is more like the round table of King Arthur (who played the role of what we would call manager today, rather than king). Compromise, thorough and thoughtful debate, and looking for pragmatic long-lasting solutions, all are more part of full representation than winner-takes-all.

I agree with you that there is nothing better than being able to talk face to face with neighbors, friends, and local people about issues that concern us all. But what to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community? In our modern world, these issues exist. Not dealing with them means giving the others from outside a free hand.

[FrankChodorov]

Globalization is here to stay

yes until peak oil hits and we stop subsidizing distribution...Ralph Borsodi in painstaking detail showed that small-scale production is more efficient than large-scale until the distribution subsidies kick in.

what to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community?

confederation...

[AlanM]

Globalization is here to stay

yes until peak oil hits and we stop subsidizing distribution...Ralph Borsodi in painstaking detail showed that small-scale production is more efficient than large-scale until the distribution subsidies kick in.

what to do when there are issues that concern us all that come from beyond the reach of our community?

confederation...

Damn, Frank, I agree with you again. This is getting spooky.  ???

[LocalParty.Org]

Aha, exiting without exiting!

But it make us weaker when there are global players, and we organize ourselves loosely. If that's how you want to play. Good luck! But this is an automatic win for the large players.