Merrimack Revolts against Tolls

[lildog]

Braddog and Penguins, you both raise good points.

Penguin is correct in that many of the larger SUVs which are high cost cars do get low gas millage.  And I agree that yes there would still be disproportionate taxes being collected but I would argue they are FAR less then we see with tolls

1) For starters the method of collecting the tolls allow forces the government to tax double what it actually needs as nearly 50% of the money collected is going toward just running the toll booths.

2) Tolls tax one physical area.  Gas tax is spread through the entire state.  What would you consider the lesser of the two evils... taxing people in town A $50 each or taxing everyone in the state $5 each?  I'll check my facts but I recall it would take something like a .1% or a .7% sales tax on gas to collect the same amount as the Merrimack tolls.  I know it was less then 1%.

But you both correctly pointed out there are problems.  Then again ANY form of taxation has problems and tax in its very nature is unfair.  That said though let's examine the negatives...

a) A gas tax taxes though use the most gas, not the most roads.  So a farmer with a lot of gas powered equipment would be taxed higher then someone in a city with a bike.

b) People with inefficient cars are taxed higher.  SUVs or older cars that don't get the gas millage of newer fuel efficient cars.  I have to disagree with both of you however that this places a burden on any one particular group more then any other as I think each group would have its share of people with efficient vs inefficient cars.  This unfair distribution is no different then saying a town has a higher number of disadvantaged vs another with tolls.

So what options are there?

1) a gas tax - which we discussed the negatives of already.

2) tolls - which unless they are on every on and off point of the highways places a higher burden on one location over another.  And the HUGE negative in my opinion is that 50% of the money collected is going to the method of collecting the money in the first place.

3) a millage tax - again this could be labor intensive in that people's cars would need to be checked for millage and if you use your car on privately owned roads a lot or drive in other states you could again be paying for roads in NH you do not use.  Also it is very easy to disconnect your speedometer which would stop your car from clocking millage.

4) a flat tax - again unfair as you tax people regardless of how much they drive... some may not even drive at all depending on how it is implemented.

5) Income tax?  Let's not even think of going there!

6) Computer chips in your car and on major roads so they can physically clock out how much you drive on each road and tax you accordingly?  I for one wouldn't want that kind of privacy invasion.  Not to mention I would think the cost of implementing something like that would be very high.

????

Looking at all the options, each has their flaws but I would have to argue that the gas taxes has the fewest flaws and is the most efficient manor in which taxes for roads can be collected at the fairest rate equally distributing the money based on how much road you use.  Not perfect but until something else comes along I see that as the best choice we've got.

[Braddogg]

The issue with the poor, penguin, is the gas tax.  Remember, we're not talking right now about general tax contribution, but only of how to pay for the roads, and if the system is fair.  The other problem with a gas tax is that if someone buys gas in another state, then drives through NH, they haven't been charged at all with the use of the roads.

So.  In Canada and California, there are private roads that use the toll system.  That tells me that it's a fairly efficient system, if done right (good use of the EZ-Pass-style technology, for example).  They also have restrictions on 18-wheelers using the roads at certain times, and charge 18-wheelers more to use the road (because they do more damage to the road).  This is the most fair system, because, as we've agreed, a gas tax is not levied proportional to the use of the road.  Check out Highway 407 in Canada.  It is, of course, not perfect, because it's the result of a private-government collaboration, but I think it's sufficient for proof of concept.

[J’raxis 270145]

EZ-Pass would have to be made anonymous for a lot of people here (such as myself) to get on board that idea. There's no actual reason it can't be, beyond that the company, or the government, wants to be able to use it as a way of tracking people.

[Braddogg]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

[JonM]

The toll booths in Merrimack were, so I have read, built to make access to Merrimack easier.  The construction was funded with $94 million in bonds which are to be paid off with the tolls collected at those toll booths.

[JonM]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

If it is anonymous, how do you bitch when it rips you off, as EZPass is wont to do.

[mvpel]

The toll booths in Merrimack were, so I have read, built to make access to Merrimack easier.  The construction was funded with $94 million in bonds which are to be paid off with the tolls collected at those toll booths.

The bonds were also supposed to fund exit 9 and a bridge to Londonderry, widening to Manchester, etc, but the bonds funded construction projects in Nashua and Manchester, and they stopped the widening project before they even reached Merrimack from the south.

And do you seriously think they're going to remove the tolls once the bonds are paid?

[J’raxis 270145]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

It would also actually need permission from the government in order to pay tolls into the government-owned tollbooths, no?

[J’raxis 270145]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

If it is anonymous, how do you bitch when it rips you off, as EZPass is wont to do.

Each card would still have a unique ID by which it can be identified, records from the central database can be pulled, and so on. What wouldn't exist in the system I'm envisioning would be a link between the card ID and your identity. So if your card was accidentally overcharged at a toll booth, you'd complain by just giving them your card number instead of your name, by which they could look up the records and fix the discrepancies.

[mvpel]

Sort of like a TracFone, eh?

Buy refills for cash at your local Radio Shack?

[mvpel]

We've been contacting our legislators for years, but it hasn't gotten us anywhere, because the DOT is squandering its money on non-highway expenditures and they need every penny they can get from us.

[Braddogg]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

If it is anonymous, how do you bitch when it rips you off, as EZPass is wont to do.

Each card would still have a unique ID by which it can be identified, records from the central database can be pulled, and so on. What wouldn't exist in the system I'm envisioning would be a link between the card ID and your identity. So if your card was accidentally overcharged at a toll booth, you'd complain by just giving them your card number instead of your name, by which they could look up the records and fix the discrepancies.

Would this be a credit or debit system?  Because I can imagine that being rather difficult if it's a credit system.

[J’raxis 270145]

If people want it, and it's feasible, then there will be either a market force for including anonymity as a feature, or it will create a market for third-party billing or somesuch for people who want to pay a little extra for their anonymity.

If it is anonymous, how do you bitch when it rips you off, as EZPass is wont to do.

Each card would still have a unique ID by which it can be identified, records from the central database can be pulled, and so on. What wouldn't exist in the system I'm envisioning would be a link between the card ID and your identity. So if your card was accidentally overcharged at a toll booth, you'd complain by just giving them your card number instead of your name, by which they could look up the records and fix the discrepancies.

Would this be a credit or debit system?  Because I can imagine that being rather difficult if it's a credit system.

Debit—you'd put money on the card, then each time you used the card, the stored value would be depleted. Run out of money, put more money on the card. I'm basically imagining something like the cash Charlie Cards in Boston, or those cards the laundromat on Valley Street in Manchester uses.

[J’raxis 270145]

Sort of like a TracFone, eh?

Buy refills for cash at your local Radio Shack?

Yep. Have you seen the Charlie Card system the Boston subway uses? They have vending machines in all the stations where you can put more money on your card. I'd imagine an anonymous EZ-Pass company placing such vending machines at gas stations, convenience stores, rest stops, &c.

[Braddogg]

Okay; that makes sense, then.  What would happen if someone with one of these things tried to go through and didn't have any money on them?  Would you be okay with them taking a snapshot of the license plate and sending a bill?