SAK Arrested for Using Liberty Dollars

[ThePug]

While of course it's inexcusable for them to be arrested and charged with a crime, I do have a problem with people convincing waiters or cashiers to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.

[Dreepa]

... I do have a problem with people convincing waiters... to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.

I don't    I like that every week I get a certain someone that tips me with Liberty Dollars    Of course, those that do also pay the bill in US dollars, which is also appreciated!!

I bet Ivy will have the largest collection of Silver before long.

[Ron Helwig]

I figure whatever is printed on them, they're still an ounce of silver...can't go too bad with that.

Sure you can, by paying $20 for an ounce of silver available for $13-$14 through other means.  Just as FRNs claim to be worth more than their paper content, Liberty Dollars claim to be worth more than their silver content.  Why not just exchange generic silver rounds?

Silver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.

First, Silver Liberties are usable in trade, unlike generic rounds. Sure, some of us hardcore libertarians recognize the value of silver, but the vast majority of people do not, and would not have any idea of the value of a silver round. Having a "suggested retail value" on the Silver Liberties makes them usable as a currency with people who don't have a web browser continually reloading the Kitco silver spot price page.

Second, Silver Liberties are a currency, generic rounds are an investment. When you trade FRNs for Liberties, you don't have to keep track of the purchase price; unlike generic rounds. When you buy generic rounds, you need to remember what you bought them for so that when you sell them you can correctly determine your profit and thus your tax burden. If you don't keep a receipt of the purchase price, then the tax collector can assess your taxes based on the full value of the silver rounds. Don't forget that NH has an investment tax. With Liberties, you don't have that issue since a currency swap is not an investment tax event.

Third, the Liberty Dollar has a movement behind it and is organized. We are signing up merchants and listing them, so you can know which businesses will accept them. You can actively use the Liberty Dollar, knowing that they will be accepted in some stores. That isn't true of generic rounds. Where is the NHGenericSilverRounds.com website? 

[Little Owl]

Silver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.<snip></snip>

Thats a nice ad, but largely untrue.  Generic rounds are usable in trade, why wouldn't they be?  Anybody considering accepting a Liberty Dollar would likely consider accepting a silver round as well.

Silver Liberties are NOT currency.  And most private mints DO have websites.

[Ron Helwig]

Silver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.<snip></snip>

Thats a nice ad, but largely untrue.  Generic rounds are usable in trade, why wouldn't they be?  Anybody considering accepting a Liberty Dollar would likely consider accepting a silver round as well.

Silver Liberties are NOT currency.  And most private mints DO have websites.

Of course its true that Liberty Dollars are more usable in trade than generic rounds. Have you even tried using them or are you just trying to stop people from working to free themselves from tyranny? People do NOT accept generic rounds as currency because they don't view it as currency. It is simply a fact that the majority of people don't know the value of silver and they view dollars as "money". You can theoretically try to use chickens or bags of sand or wampum as currency, but that doesn't mean that people will accept them.

People DO accept the Liberty Dollar because it has a dollar value on it. That one thing by itself makes it usable in trade.

Silver Liberties ARE currency, that is an indisputable fact. They were created specifically to BE currency, and your saying they aren't doesn't make it so. It only pisses off those of us who are actually doing something to move us towards freedom.

[mvpel]

Sure you can, by paying $20 for an ounce of silver available for $13-$14 through other means.  Just as FRNs claim to be worth more than their paper content, Liberty Dollars claim to be worth more than their silver content.  Why not just exchange generic silver rounds?

The "spot price" is the price of a 1,000 ounce ingot of silver located in New York for immediate delivery with payment in cash.

So saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price" means that you want to leech off of the people who pony up the cash, fuel, and labor to take that 1,000 ounce bar of silver to a mint, roll it out, punch out the blanks, mint the rounds, and deliver the finished product.

As for a fixed face value - would you rather have $0 of tangible value backing your medium of exchange, or >$0?

[Jacobus]

I do not believe that generic silver is usable as currency.  This thread inspired me to write the following post on NH Liberty Dollar:

http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/sep/silver_money_why_bother_liberty_dollar

[ThePug]

... I do have a problem with people convincing waiters... to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.

I don't    I like that every week I get a certain someone that tips me with Liberty Dollars    Of course, those that do also pay the bill in US dollars, which is also appreciated!!

Leaving them as a tip is fine, since a tip isn't an actual debt to pay. I'm talking about paying a bill in them. For example, someone using LDs to pay their check at a restaurant if they haven't confirmed that LDs are accepted there. Even worse is if they convince some poor gullible cashier to accept them, because the amount could end up getting taken out of their paycheck.

You seriously get LD tips, though? Where do you work? I had no idea they were that widespread anywhere. I understand the objections people have to the LD, but they're still better than than Federal Reserve scrip, and that's good enough for me.

[Little Owl]

So saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price"...blah blah blah

Are you the same person who falsely claimed I said this in another forum, or are there actually two of you who keep hearing "spot price" when I don't say it?

Have you even tried using them or are you just trying to stop people from working to free themselves from tyranny?

Before you go on about "tyranny" consider the tyranny of good old-fashioned marketing.  Liberty Dollars are a convenient way to sell bullion coins at inflated prices.  They are not Sam Adams pressed into a round.  Cut the "He must be Darth Vader" crap just because I think Liberty Dollars are a poor choice for barter.  Its doubly depressing because I think it *could* have been done right.

I do not believe that generic silver is usable as currency.

Why not?  I've paid people in silver and they're more than happy to accept it.  Instead of being stamped with a questionable "$20", they're stamped with their weight.  (Actually, I've done most silver transactions using 10oz bars, not 1oz because the premium over content is too high.)

I haven't been paying $20 for them.

How much do you pay for them, Kat?

[mvpel]

So saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price"...blah blah blah

Are you the same person who falsely claimed I said this in another forum, or are there actually two of you who keep hearing "spot price" when I don't say it?

You said "$13-$14" and the current New York spot price bid as of right now, Tuesday September 25, 12:05pm, is $13.39, and it closed at $13.48 yesterday.  What else am I supposed to assume but that you're talking about the spot price?

[Little Owl]

What else am I supposed to assume but that you're talking about the spot price?

Don't assume anything.  You know what they say about people who assume....

Still haven't heard a good explanation about why this "Inflation Proof" currency went from 10 per oz. Ag to 20 per oz.

[mvpel]

If it wasn't "inflation proof" it would have gone from 20 to 10.  Inflation is the erosion of value in the unit of currency.  The Liberty Dollar is pegged to the value of the dollar, and as the value of the dollar falls, the number of dollars needed to maintain the peg increases.

As for its link to the dollar, this simplifies things for a nation which is widely unaccustomed to dealing in multiple currencies.  It's one thing for a Canadian McDonald's or the Schipol airport to post a daily or weekly US dollar/Euro/whatever conversion rate and have their cash registers programmed to accept multiple currencies, but it's quite another for 99.999% of US retail businesses.

Also the multi-currency-accepting Canadian businesses that I've ever seen don't give change in anything other than Canadian dollars, which applied to silver would defeat the purpose of having the metal or certificates actually circulating in the economy.

Pegging the ounce of silver to a specific number of dollars avoids this complexity, but still allows businesses to negotiate acceptance with the customer - for example, acceptance of payment offered in LD could be at a $17 per ounce ratio, instead of the full $20.  Just as they don't have to accept silver as payment, they don't have to accept von Nothaus' idea of the exchange rate.

[Little Owl]

The Liberty Dollar did erode in value.  It was once worth 0.10 tr oz of silver.  Today its worth 0.05 tr oz.  Likewise in gold.

Maintaining its peg to the U.S. Dollar, in my opinion, defeats its purpose.  They should have estimated what they wanted a "Liberty" to be worth (in today's dollars) and set it equal to that amount of precious metal.

And before you incorrectly read (yet a third time) a claim that this occur at spot price, I will point out that it is routine for currency exchange services to charge both a surcharge and point-spread for converting currency.  The cost of minting liberties and/or printing paper and warehousing silver could be recouped as the fee associated with converting USD to Liberties.  Once converted, Liberties could be exchanged for goods at or near spot.

Some variant of this approach beats the "We'll devalue it with the Dollar" nonsense in place today.

[Ron Helwig]

The Liberty Dollar did erode in value.  It was once worth 0.10 tr oz of silver.  Today its worth 0.05 tr oz.  Likewise in gold.

No it didn't. The amount of silver did not change, only the "suggested FRN value" changed, due to the FRN's value being eroded. In fact, this is one of the big advantages of the Liberty Dollar: it shows how badly the FRN is devaluing. You clearly get to see "this ounce used to be worth about $10 FRNs, but due to the FRN inflating it is now worth about $20 FRNs" or "this ounce used to buy $10 worth of stuff, but due to the FRN being inflated it can now buy $20 worth of stuff".

Maintaining its peg to the U.S. Dollar, in my opinion, defeats its purpose.  They should have estimated what they wanted a "Liberty" to be worth (in today's dollars) and set it equal to that amount of precious metal.

An ounce IS an ounce. Marking it with a suggested FRN value is the whole point of the Liberty Dollar, making it acceptable in trade where people are used to ONLY accepting FRNs. If you take away the suggested FRN value denomination, you essentially give up on the idea of transitioning away from a fiat currency.

And before you incorrectly read (yet a third time) a claim that this occur at spot price, I will point out that it is routine for currency exchange services to charge both a surcharge and point-spread for converting currency.  The cost of minting liberties and/or printing paper and warehousing silver could be recouped as the fee associated with converting USD to Liberties.  Once converted, Liberties could be exchanged for goods at or near spot.

Then why would people use it? If a silver round is priced like you suggest, you would be insane to use it as a currency. Gresham's law and all that.

[Recumbent ReCycler]

I would prefer to just use "ounces of silver" rather than $ or L$ in commerce.  I have used a 1/2 oz silver Liberty dollar to pay for a bowl of chili and a latte.  Before I ordered, I asked the owner of the restaurant if he would accept 1/2 oz. of silver for a bowl of chili and a latte.  He agreed, so I gave him the silver and he gave me my food.  I didn't suggest that it was a $10 silver coin or that it was currency, only that it was 1/2 oz. pure silver.