Saddam offered to go into exile 1 month before Iraq war

[mvpel]

But going back to the original post . . . if this article is accurate, I definitely think we could have saved many people's lives by ushering Saddam out of power.

How so, if bloodthirsty sadists Uday and Qusay had simply stepped right into his shoes and continued in his tradition of obstruction and deception, funded not only with the Oil-for-Food racket, but also with some of the $1 billion US given to their father?

IT IS always a temptation to an armed and agile nation,
    To call upon a neighbour and to say:—
"We invaded you last night—we are quite prepared to fight,
    Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
    And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
    And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
    To puff and look important and to say:—
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
    We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
    But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
    You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
    For fear they should succumb and go astray,
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
    You will find it better policy to say:—

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
    No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
    And the nation that plays it is lost!"

[J’raxis 270145]

As far as the picture mvpel has pasted it is very bothersome as for the question of who should have protected him, my answer is his fellow countrymen.

Bingo. Have you been watching Myanmar Burma over the past couple days? The U.S. has done nothing over the history of the military régime running that country to help those people, besides a few limp-wristed attempts at asset seizure and half-assed sanctions. And now, the Burmese are finally rising up and taking the situation into their own hands.

[mvpel]

Bingo. Have you been watching Myanmar Burma over the past couple days? The U.S. has done nothing over the history of the military régime running that country to help those people, besides a few limp-wristed attempts at asset seizure and half-assed sanctions. And now, the Burmese are finally rising up and taking the situation into their own hands.

And how many, what percentage, of Burmese died until that happened, and how many more will die doing so?

Are you speaking in favor, here, of military intervention?  Because half-assed sanctions and limp-wristed attempts were just what the world did with Iraq for some ten years after their invasion of Kuwait.

[alohamonkey]

How so, if bloodthirsty sadists Uday and Qusay had simply stepped right into his shoes and continued in his tradition of obstruction and deception, funded not only with the Oil-for-Food racket, but also with some of the $1 billion US given to their father?

Personally, I don't think we should have done anything about Saddam.  I don't think it was our place to get involved with another nation's internal affairs.  But if I were given two options: #1 - pay Saddam to leave, #2 - declare an unprovoked war against a sovereign nation . . . I would choose #1.  

Even if Uday and Qusay would have stepped into power (which I don't think we would have allowed - I think one of the stipulations of Saddam leaving would have included his sons and most of his regime too), they would have had to be pretty busy to keep up with the great American military killing machine.  Even if they worked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I don't think they would have killed as many Iraqi civilians as our 100,000+ troops have in the last few years.  

[J’raxis 270145]

Bingo. Have you been watching Myanmar Burma over the past couple days? The U.S. has done nothing over the history of the military régime running that country to help those people, besides a few limp-wristed attempts at asset seizure and half-assed sanctions. And now, the Burmese are finally rising up and taking the situation into their own hands.

And how many, what percentage, of Burmese died until that happened, and how many more will die doing so?

And how many Burmese, and American soldiers, would die if the U.S. were to launch airstrikes or invade the country?

Are you speaking in favor, here, of military intervention?  Because half-assed sanctions and limp-wristed attempts were just what the world did with Iraq for some ten years after their invasion of Kuwait.

No, I was pointing out the selectivity of U.S. humanitarian interventions. If our government truly believed in humanitarian intervention, they'd engage in such practice consistently. They don't. Thus, this is grounds for suspicion that there are other motives for the actions they do engage in, and a little bit of research quickly discovers such motives.

[mvpel]

"Unprovoked?"

Come ON, man.

The provocation began with Iraq's invasion and pillage of Kuwait.  The so-called "Second Gulf War" was simply the end of the conditional cease-fire enacted after the First, following Saddam's flouting of said conditions countless times.

[mvpel]

No, I was pointing out the selectivity of U.S. humanitarian interventions. If our government truly believed in humanitarian intervention, they'd engage in such practice consistently. They don't. Thus, this is grounds for suspicion that there are other motives for the actions they do engage in, and a little bit of research quickly discovers such motives.

Indeed.  As you may have noticed or heard rumored, Iraq and its neighbors in the Middle East have oil, and the supply of oil is, like it or not, an essential component of our national security.

If our government would stop blocking development of domestic oil supplies, stop blocking the import or sale of diesel passenger cars that get twice the MPG of gasoline cars, and so on, then maybe we could treat Iraqis the same way we treat the Darfuris or the Burmese - cluck our tongues and engage in some half-hearted scolding as a genocide unfolds before the eyes of retreating UN "peacekeepers."

[alohamonkey]

"Unprovoked?"

Come ON, man.

The provocation began with Iraq's invasion and pillage of Kuwait.  The so-called "Second Gulf War" was simply the end of the conditional cease-fire enacted after the First, following Saddam's flouting of said conditions countless times.

Maybe provoke isn't the right word.  Even though the administration and media did a good job convincing the U.S. population that Iraq and Saddam were involved with 9/11 . . . they weren't.  We initiated a war against a sovereign nation that had done NOTHING to directly harm us. 

[alohamonkey]

Indeed.  As you may have noticed or heard rumored, Iraq and its neighbors in the Middle East have oil, and the supply of oil is, like it or not, an essential component of our national security.

And the two most powerful men in the U.S. were formerly involved in the oil industry.  They know how much $$$ can be made in that business.  Many people are making big bucks right now by wasting our tax dollars . . . especially Halliburton, Bechtal, KBR, Blackwater, etc.

If our government would stop blocking development of domestic oil supplies, stop blocking the import or sale of diesel passenger cars that get twice the MPG of gasoline cars, and so on, then maybe we could treat Iraqis the same way we treat the Darfuris or the Burmese - cluck our tongues and engage in some half-hearted scolding as a genocide unfolds before the eyes of retreating UN "peacekeepers."

And until the government reverses its policies, you are advocating imperialism.  Conquering and occupying a sovereign nation with the intent to profit off of their natural resources. 

[J’raxis 270145]

"Unprovoked?"

Come ON, man.

The provocation began with Iraq's invasion and pillage of Kuwait.  The so-called "Second Gulf War" was simply the end of the conditional cease-fire enacted after the First, following Saddam's flouting of said conditions countless times.

I can hardly see how the United States considered Saddam's invasion a provocation for anything, considering the U.S. ambassador told Saddam that the United States had "no opinion on your Arab–Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

[EthanAllen]

One of the proper roles of government is to protect individuals from initiation of force, and theft of someone's ideas and the profit they could make from them is as much an initiation of force as theft of something tangible.

Ideas are non-rivalrous in a way that tangible property is not.

Are you saying that it's wrong that most innovation relies on intellectual property laws? 

I am saying it is Statist - read Stephan Kinsella.

What would be the point of coming up with anything at all if someone more powerful than you could just steal your future profit from you at will?

I dunno - what's up with open source software?

[Sheep Fuzzy Wool]

"Unprovoked?"

Come ON, man.

The provocation began with Iraq's invasion and pillage of Kuwait.  The so-called "Second Gulf War" was simply the end of the conditional cease-fire enacted after the First, following Saddam's flouting of said conditions countless times.

All at the same time, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928/ap_on_el_pr/bush_clinton_fatigue_2 we seem to have people with similar names becoming president, like in what a dynasty may produce.    Such a coincidence, hmmm.  Good thing there hasn't been a name like Card, or else we may have to call the white house the house of cards.

Yes, I am proud to be a supervisor in the land of the free!

[alohamonkey]

IT IS always a temptation to an armed and agile nation,
    To call upon a neighbour and to say:—
"We invaded you last night—we are quite prepared to fight,
    Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
    And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
    And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
    To puff and look important and to say:—
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
    We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
    But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
    You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
    For fear they should succumb and go astray,
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
    You will find it better policy to say:—

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
    No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
    And the nation that plays it is lost!"

Apparently the U.S. doesn't have a problem rewarding North Korea even after their repeated defiance.  They even tested nuclear bombs after we told them not to!!  They were way more advanced in WMD-making than Saddam and Iraq ever were.  And, they've got a looooong list of human rights violations.  It doesn't keep us from paying them off . . . . Do you know why we didn't go to war there?  North Korea isn't sitting on the world's 2nd largest oil reserve.  


US to give N. Korea $25M in fuel aid
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_nkorea_4;_ylt=AnPX8UezEdn8w4gqM6IxPSkE1vAI

WASHINGTON - The United States on Friday announced it would spend up to $25 million to pay for 50,000 tons of heavy fuel oil for North Korea — part of an agreement the communist regime made with the U.S. and other nations pushing it to dismantle its nuclear program.

Under a February agreement, the U.S. and other participants in the six-party negotiations with Pyongyang agreed to provide North Korea with 1 million tons of heavy fuel oil, or the monetary equivalent in other aid and assistance.

In return, North Korea agreed to shut down its main nuclear reactor, which it did in July, and then declare and ultimately dismantle all its nuclear programs.

China, the U.S., South Korea and Russia agreed to provide aid, although Moscow may contribute in the form of debt relief. Japan has refused to provide aid until Pyongyang fully accounts for the abductions of Japanese citizens by North Korea.

South Korea already has provided 50,000 tons of heavy fuel oil, and earlier this month, China said it had delivered a shipment of oil to North Korea amid a series of efforts to keep talks on disabling North Korean nuclear programs on track.

China, which is North Korea's primary provider of trade and aid, has typically used deliveries of oil as an inducement to persuade its politically isolated, economically strapped communist ally to take part in the six-party talks.

The hard-line regime expelled U.N. monitors in late 2002, shutting its nuclear activities to outside view. But, after exploding a test atomic bomb last October, North Korea agreed four months later to scrap its nuclear weapons program in exchange for the economic and political concessions.

The six-party talks resume Thursday in Beijing and chief U.S. envoy Christopher Hill said they were entering a "very important phase." North Korea has described this round of negotiations as make-or-break.

[Insurgent]

Apparently the U.S. doesn't have a problem rewarding North Korea even after their repeated defiance.  They even tested nuclear bombs after we told them not to!!  They were way more advanced in WMD-making than Saddam and Iraq ever were.  And, they've got a looooong list of human rights violations.  It doesn't keep us from paying them off . . . . Do you know why we didn't go to war there?  North Korea isn't sitting on the world's 2nd largest oil reserve. 

Ding-ding-ding--we have a winner!

[mvpel]

And the two most powerful men in the U.S. were formerly involved in the oil industry.  They know how much $$$ can be made in that business.  Many people are making big bucks right now by wasting our tax dollars . . . especially Halliburton, Bechtal, KBR, Blackwater, etc.

That doesn't mean that a secure and reliable supply oil is not an essential aspect of our nation's national security.  It's just guilt-by-association flailing against Cheney and Bush.

Stick it to the MAN - make BIODIESEL.

Was France engaging in imperialism when they aided the US in the Revolutionary War?