Something is going on at Error's apartment!

[error]

If you stopped paying taxes, you'd be freer.

[shyfrog]

Actually, it's exactly the same topic, and the same question, slightly rephrased.

So if I stopped paying taxes, I'd be free?

False Premise

[Braddogg]

I think you're right, Lou, but that's not "give me liberty or give me death."  It's "Give me liberty, or I'll fight for more."  It's "Live free or try," not "Live free or die."

No...it is Live Free or Die
Because in the end, I'll die, if it comes to that, in order to ensure that freedom for generations to come.
The wars being fought currently are not worthy of that death.
If (when) it comes here. Then it will be.

Call it romantic. It is what it is.

How much freedom do you have to lose before you'll pick up a gun and die?

You got kids? Didn't think so.

Non sequitur.

[Braddogg]

If you stopped paying taxes, you'd be freer.

But it's not "Live freer or die."  The suicidal mantra is "Live free or die," and I don't think the government will let us live free . . . .

[J’raxis 270145]

I know I probably said more than what I should or needed to have said.  HOWEVER, I thought it important to have the video posted, at the very least, to use it as a training tool for all of us to know what not to say or how to respond better in the future... and I also know I did the best I could at the time under the threat I felt to myself and Rob without any type of training or prior experience in these matters.  I'm sure everyone knows and understands that.

Don't second guess yourself, or allow anyone else to shake you regarding what you did.  You did damn well, all things considered.  Could it have been handled better?  Yes--provided you had prior training and preparation, provided you didn't need to worry about Peter, provided you weren't worried about what might happen to Rob and others, and provided you had some notice it was coming before you did.

Will you do better next time (if anything similar happens in the future)? Probably.  But you came out ok, Peter came out ok, Rob and everyone else came out ok.  You can't ask for much more than that.  And to add icing to the cake, you got some training and experience (even if it was damn scary and uncomfortable), we all got a bit of a wake-up call, you got video evidence of some of the tactics used by the fedgovgoons, and we all get to sit around here doing after action reviews about what happened without having to worry about anyone who was hurt or arrested (in this particular case). 

Incidentally, in a fight, you've got to realize that the prize is keeping what you have--not winning something you don't have.  If you win, you live.  If you lose, you die.    It ain't pretty, it ain't fun, but it's true.  If you make it out reasonably intact, be thankful, and chalk it up as one more victory, and a learning experience.  And don't let any armchair generals cheat you out of your victory.

And of course, the feds didn't make themselves any friends this time.  They've succeeded in irritating and scaring folks, but they damn sure didn't make any of us like them any more than we did before.  And they've caused many of us to become more aware of their tactics, and how to counter them.  We win, folks.  It ain't a big and glamorous victory, and it damn sure didn't win us the war.  But it did win us a small skirmish.  It strengthened us, strengthened our resolve, and strengthened our preparation.  I almost feel sorry for the poor bastards.  Almost.

Well put, Mike. They got absolutely nothing out of the entire incident, and we all know more about their tricks and tactics and will all be better-equipped to deal with them next time. I pointed out at least twice to Ed Brown supporters to not be so loose in showing how they operate, what they're up to, and who's involved (COMSEC and OPSEC), and it looks like the Treasury goons are in need of the same advice.

[shyfrog]

I think you're right, Lou, but that's not "give me liberty or give me death."  It's "Give me liberty, or I'll fight for more."  It's "Live free or try," not "Live free or die."

No...it is Live Free or Die
Because in the end, I'll die, if it comes to that, in order to ensure that freedom for generations to come.
The wars being fought currently are not worthy of that death.
If (when) it comes here. Then it will be.

Call it romantic. It is what it is.

How much freedom do you have to lose before you'll pick up a gun and die?

Won't know until it happens. The goal, however, is to NOT die.
The goal is to live free. And I'd rather die moving toward that goal, than to live under involuntary servitude.

[srqrebel]

I wouldn't advise provoking these guys by doing an open carry while they are surrounding a house.  It may be your legal right, but you could also end up seriously dead because these feds are incredibly paranoid.  I also wouldn't get in their faces while open carrying.

Again, we need to keep the finger pointed where it belongs. Including in our mind, and in our words. Open carrying is a passive activity. It is ineligible for descriptors such as "provoking" or "in their faces." If they have an issue with citizen carry, they can relocate to one of the many countries that share their views of victim disarmament or they can remain in this country and take up an occupation that doesn't require them to take an oath to the Constitution. If somebody exercises their right despite the threat of force and is wrongfully injured or killed in the process, the dog will get put down that much faster. It's not a sexy image, but it IS living free or dying.

Very well stated, Dan.

Welcome to the nhfree forum!  I look forward to welcoming you home to NH soon 

[Braddogg]

How much freedom do you have to lose before you'll pick up a gun and die?

Won't know until it happens. The goal, however, is to NOT die.
The goal is to live free. And I'd rather die moving toward that goal, than to live under involuntary servitude.

The parallels between slavery in the Old South and the current system are uncanny.  The Master must approve of formal marriages, The Master can decide what job you can have, The Master can decide what you can buy, The Master can tell you not to go somewhere.  There were thriving economies among slaves on Southern plantations.  The Master would give their slaves spending money if they worked beyond the regular workload.  Interestingly, some slaves in the Old South, especially in the 1800s, did not work on their master's property.  Some were leased outright to others for the year, and, most interestingly, some were told to go find work themselves and return with the money they earned.  I suppose one difference now is that The Master only provides food, housing, job training, and doctors for those who can't pay it themselves.  Everyone else is allowed to keep enough to pay for those things and for the little extras that slaves used to get from their masters.

Don't get me wrong, it still sucked a lot harder than what we've got now.  But dying would suck a lot more.  I don't know about your religious beliefs, but maybe I think this way because I'm an atheist and am convinced that this life is all we have.

[error]

Maybe this life is all you get and there's nothing beyond it, but even so, what good is it to just live on the rations of gruel and salt pork the master provides for you and to spend your days under the whip? What sort of life is that? What impact are you making? What good have you done?

Seizing your freedom not only gives you the opportunity to improve your own life, it gives hope to those still on the plantation who haven't yet gathered up the courage to run away.

And if there's nothing after death, then the only thing that will follow is your memory in the hearts and minds of others. I would rather be remembered as someone who stood up and refused to be a slave any longer. And even if it costs me my life, it's worth it.

[shyfrog]

How much freedom do you have to lose before you'll pick up a gun and die?

Won't know until it happens. The goal, however, is to NOT die.
The goal is to live free. And I'd rather die moving toward that goal, than to live under involuntary servitude.

The parallels between slavery in the Old South and the current system are uncanny.  The Master must approve of formal marriages, The Master can decide what job you can have, The Master can decide what you can buy, The Master can tell you not to go somewhere.  There were thriving economies among slaves on Southern plantations.  The Master would give their slaves spending money if they worked beyond the regular workload.  Interestingly, some slaves in the Old South, especially in the 1800s, did not work on their master's property.  Some were leased outright to others for the year, and, most interestingly, some were told to go find work themselves and return with the money they earned.  I suppose one difference now is that The Master only provides food, housing, job training, and doctors for those who can't pay it themselves.  Everyone else is allowed to keep enough to pay for those things and for the little extras that slaves used to get from their masters.

Don't get me wrong, it still sucked a lot harder than what we've got now.  But dying would suck a lot more.  I don't know about your religious beliefs, but maybe I think this way because I'm an atheist and am convinced that this life is all we have.

I'm motivated by the thought that others are also motivated by liberty and living free from the "shackles" of tyranny. If this life is all there is, then I'll make every second count as best I can knowing there are others who feel the same and work toward the same goal of individual freedom and choice. It helps to ensure that younger generations will be taught the same principles and will continue that thread long after I'm worm food. So it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or an afterlife. The life that is HERE and NOW will continue into infinity (barring complete annihilation) regardless. That is why I am here in NH. This is why I teach my children to be responsible for themselves and to value learning and discovery and liberty. There is quite a bit of selfishness in my approach despite the fact that I am a firm believer in "God". "I" want my family, friends, and others who embrace the ideals of liberty to live forever. Pass it on man...Live Free or Die: Death is not the worst of evils.

[srqrebel]

You got kids? Didn't think so.

Non sequitur.

That is not a non sequitur -- it follows perfectly: If you had children, wouldn't you would love them enough to give up your life if need be, in order to secure their freedom?  But those of us who have never had children don't tend to think of those things on our own. 

The way I have always understood "live free or die": As long as one has hope for achieving freedom, there is reason to live.  If one was trapped in totalitarian conditions with no hope for escape, it is more desirable to die than to live under such conditions.

Personally, I would also much prefer death to the extremely unfree condition of being tortured into betraying my conscience.

[(V)]

20 plus years and counting.

They aren't torturing people with my money.

[Russell Kanning]

If you stopped paying taxes, you'd be freer.

Not for long

7 years and counting for me ... living freer

[Sheep Fuzzy Wool]

live free or get maimed?

live free or else?

live free or live dead?

live free or don't?

live free..cuz.

live free or...whatever.

  :-\Kola  

Live and let die?

[Sheep Fuzzy Wool]

Ultimately, one can only live free if their mind is free from attachment. Our attachments create a shorter life span because we suffer when we can not have this or that, which creates stress, ages the body and you die.
So, the truth of "Live Free or Die," is gainig control over one's own mind. The more people who achieve this, will then create a collective freedom.  If we do not do this, we can be controled like animals through our attachments. In addition to this, the means to free the mind, is through enquiry, first into "who am I," then ask questions of those who seem to have the control (the one with the gun, the badge, the handcuffs, the piece of paper with your name on it, etc., etc., etc.).
Simple truth, when it comes to ignorant man's law, if you are asking questions, you are winning. If you are answering questions, you are losing.
Natural law says we are each sovereign and no one has jurisdiction over anyone else. Our collective realization of this will bring an automatic colapse of the entire legal system as we know it.  The very nature of man's legal system is such that you must voluntarily give jurisdiction to another man, in order for him to have it.  It is our fear (a result which comes from attachments) of incarceration or death, or lack of money, or whatever else the mind might create, which allows us to willingly give away jurisdiction.  The good news is it appears people are gradually waking up to their own sovereignty and it is just a matter of time until critical mass (the hundreth monkey) is realized.
LIVE FREE OR DIE!