Towing, Licenses, Rights, etc... From this operators P.O.V.

[JDouglasFisher]

I am starting a new thread on this because this discussion was going on in the Hew Hampshire Militia thread, but I didn't want to divert the focus of that thread, so I will respond to what KBCraig said here...

LOL, yeah, I'm bustin' on you just a little bit. 

But seriously: when a car couldn't be left where it was for safety reasons, wouldn't you be willing to tow it to the nearest open parking space, so that a designated person could pick it up and drive/tow it to a place of the driver's choosing?

You are absolutely entitled to be paid for the tow. It's your time, equipment, and labor, and you deserve to be compensated. I just don't think that towing should automatically segue to massive impound fees that accumulate every day that the driver is in jail. (And if such bills accrue, the police who seize the car should pay the bill.)

The driver should always have the option of declaring where the car should be towed. The only time I've been forced to tow a car (after an accident), Arkansas state law required that the car be towed to the operator's impound lot. They had to pass by my ex-wife's apartment complex, where I had permission to drop the car. I had to pay for that tow, plus 1 day's impound, then pay them to tow it back to the parking lot they'd passed by. After the car was declared a total loss, I had to pay to have the car towed to a salvage yard, where I got a big whopping $100 salvage value. (Knowing how salvage works, I know they made at least a cool grand on the deal.)

I'm all for you making money with your towing service. It's a needed service, one many people gladly pay for. My only objection is using a police monopoly, and using the laws to impound cars, when they could just as easily be towed elsewhere without incurring impound fees.

I don't think you're a bad guy, Fisher. I just think you're a bit too accustomed to how things are done in the Police State of New Jersey. I believe you'll adjust your way of thinking when you spend a bit more time here, and especially when you make the move.

Just by the bye, I have an ex-sister-in-law in Ocean City (formerly of Cherry Hill). When she comes home to Arkansas, she has to drive in circles to find a full service station, because she doesn't know how to pump her own gas. 

This is going to be long winded, so please bear with me on this.

First, I'll start with a little history on towing and impoundment in NJ. About 10 years ago, the only time a car was impounded was either because it was abandoned (and the owner was not around to locate), or in the cases of drug trafficking, or perhaps the vehicle was used as a tool to facilitate a crime (I.E. Drive By Shooting). Go ahead and laugh, I'm serious....

Back in the day, if you were pulled over for no registration, no insurance, no D.L., you would end up with your car at home somehow (if it was a D.L. case, your friend, neighbor, etc. could drive the car for instance..) In cases of no ins. or no reg, they would allow you to have it towed home. No Big Deal.

The PROBLEM becomes that people then abuse the system. Instead of people doing the "Right Thing" by getting their car insured and registered like they were supposed to, they decided that they would continue to cheat the system.

So the state decided that from now on, if a vehicle came back un-registered, the police would seize the plates off the car, and allow you to tow the car home. Atleast this way, you still had your car, and in theory, you would then have to get it re-registered.

This worked for about 2 tenths of a millisecond because as soon as the cops took one set of license plates, people would just throw on another set (sometimes not matching, we have 2 plates per car in NJ). I have witnessed first hand, while dropping the car off the hook, the owner retrieving another set of old plates from the house, and throwing them on the car to start driving again after I left. I didn't give a damned, I made my money, no biggie, right?

Also, around this same time, if your car wasn't insured, you could have it towed home. Alot of times people violate two laws, 1. being the failure to register and 2. the other being the failure to insure. (driving with no insurance is A BIG PROBLEM IN NJ....)

So then the state took a different approach, and said "well, if you have a set of plates, and the registration on those plates is past due 90 days, you are to return them to the DMV (now the Motor Vehicles Commission). Failure to return "State Property" would result in the suspension of your driving privileges. Sounds good on paper, but that didn't work because DMV (now MVC) is soo disorganized, they cannot keep track of whose plates are long-expired... (plus there is an out, its called "I lost my plates, My Plates were stolen, etc.")

Meanwhile, it was estimated about 5 years ago that up to 1/3rd of all cars on the road in NJ were uninsured. Both the people and the insurance companies complained fiercely about the problem cause all to often, someone would be involved in a car crash with an individual who was uninsured. That means you and your car insurance company GOT BEAT because someone else was cheating the system.

So they came up with the solution that we have today. IF your car is uninsured, and your pulled over, the vehicle is seized and not released until you show proof of insurance to the police department, who then issues an impound release so that you may retrieve your vehicle. If the car is unregistered as well, it can be released only if it is towed out. (you do have the right to choose which towing service for the tow home) If your car is registered, then you can drive it home.

This IS what NJ really needed, cause I know too many people who got the short end of the stick because someone else was trying to pull a fast one, and not do their part. If I have to pay for car insurance in NJ (and its not cheap by any means) so does everyone else. Uninsured motorists in NJ was a really big problem, and it did need to be addressed.

In NH, things are different, but I'll get to that in a minute.

Now, as for the owner of a vehicle having a right to choose where to place the car, look, I don't like impounding cars. If I have an option (within reason) of being able to ditch the car elsewhere so it dosen't sit on my lot, leaking fluids, contaminating my soil, etc., I'd rather tow it elsewhere (this also eliminates getting stuck with an unwanted vehicle for 6 months). There are times however I do not have the choice, Abandonment, Driver/Passengers go to the hospital, driver arrested (and no one else there to drive the vehicle).

I won't just take "some unknown strangers" word that the owner said they want the car towed here because it opens me up, as a business owner, to a lawsuit (and man, I have seen many of those in my 11 years...) If the owner is not present (and their parents aren't either) then I will take the vehicle to my lot. Please realize that in this day in age, we are a very litigious society. I have seen complaints filed through the court because the owner of a vehicle (husband) did not authorize his car to be released and towed to a repair shop, even though it was HIS WIFE who paid the bill, and gave us the instructions. Sounds Crazy, but it happens EVERY DAY in NJ.

Now admittedly, there are things in this business which I call "shady" because although they borderline being legal, its just morally wrong. For instance, allowing the pickup of vehicles from your impound between the hours of 8:30am to 4:30pm, mon-fri only. This scheme (and thats what I call it) is designed for the sole purpose to try and get every penny out of storage fees. Most people work 8am-5pm to begin with, so you can see where this goes.. I've always been of the opinion (a very small minority opinion) that if your running a 24 hour towing service, then you should be releasing cars 24 hours as well. I don't see the point in punishing people MORE just because they have to work, and cannot easily take time off from work to retrieve a vehicle.

I actually worked for one shop for a while where they had an "Authorization to Release" form which the owner/leasee had to fill out, which showed they actually were the owner of the vehicle, and that they authorized its release to whatever shop or address it went. This came about because the company was sued frivolously so many times, that even though they never lost a case, the costs of attourneys fees almost nosedived the company into bankruptcy.

Which brings us to another point regarding Drivers Licenses. Look, I believe everyone should have one in the state they live. Although part of that revolves around the idea that you have shown competency in ability to drive, it also keeps people VERY HONEST. Although I admire Mrs Canario's bravery, and I am sure in her opinion, if she somehow caused a crash, she would have no problem admitting to her fault, the reality is most people would do anything they can, to get away from taking responsibility for causing such an incident, and that would include providing a false identity. 

I have seen unlicensed drivers in New Jersey, crash their car (usually into someone elses, or perhaps into a building or something) and then flee the scene on foot before the cops show up. IF they get caught, because they have no I.D., they provide FALSE INFORMATION purposely because they know that it won't catch up to them.

Imagine if you will for a minute, driving in a state that didn't require drivers licenses or vehicle registrations? 90 percent of the people who got into an accident, wouldn't fess up to their wrong doing. Then YOU, as the property owner, who now has a crashed car, or a knocked down fence, are stuck paying the bill because someone else was not only reckless in their operation of a motorvehicle, but also because you have no way of positively I.D.ing the person. If I tell the cop my name is Bruce Whatever, and I don't have another form of I.D. to back that up, your stuck buddy, and honestly, I don't like seeing good people get screwed because someone else is a manipulative jackass (to put it lightly)

Driving a car is like owning a firearm. It comes with its inherent responsibilities. Unfortunately, when it comes to driving, many people avoid responsibility altogether, and try to direct blame elsewhere. Example. I was in a rollback, sitting at a traffic light one night. Being that the road goes downhill, my truck was facing downhill, so if I let my foot off the brake, it would roll through the intersection, and go down hill.

A car comes from behind me, and hits me in the rear end of my truck. Do you know what the lady told the cop when he arrived? "I rolled back into her"... Even the cop couldn't believe this story, being how steep the road was. But she INSISTED that I rolled backwards (uphill, against the laws of gravity) into her. 

No one likes to take responsibility for their actions nowadays, and as a business owner, I need to protect all my interests as best as I can.

Now that I have digressed way off the mark here, back to towing..

In cases where the car is parked in an inappropriate place, and the owner isn't around, (abandonment) then the vehicle has to come back to my lot. If I just parked it elsewhere, 1.) I wouldn't get paid, and 2.) If something happens to the vehicle, even if I DIDN'T DAMAGE IT, I will still be blamed because I now become the scapegoat. (that f-ing towtruck driving scum did it, he must've dented my fender..)

Now, if the owner is around, then they can either drive the car to a better place, or in the case that the vehicle is disabled, have it towed wherever they want.. I am familiar with the Arkansas law only because I know of a few municipalities that have the same law in their ordinances. I don't agree with it, and if it was my shop, I'd say screw the law in that sense.. You have already enough problems with your car being broken down, you don't need to have more because of an inconvenience (and a financial screw job) because some towing companies got together and petitioned the government to stick the screws to the average motorist.

Which brings me to something else.. I caught on another thread here that apparently towing companies charge extra money for a tow dolly??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? That sounds like a scam to me too in my opinion.

I really can go on and on about all the evils of our industry, and what my ideals are but I worry that perhaps I would crash the NHFree database....

Just out of curiosity, what are towing services costing up in NH anyway nowadays.. $50.00 a day storage seems very steep to me, but thats just my opinion...

I have agita now, I'm shutting up..

Joe.

[J’raxis 270145]

Meanwhile, it was estimated about 5 years ago that up to 1/3rd of all cars on the road in NJ were uninsured. Both the people and the insurance companies complained fiercely about the problem cause all to often, someone would be involved in a car crash with an individual who was uninsured. That means you and your car insurance company GOT BEAT because someone else was cheating the system.

Considering how profitable insurance is (you know this industry is richer than bankers, right?), no doubt they complained the state wasn't forcing people to purchase their services.

So they came up with the solution that we have today. IF your car is uninsured, and your pulled over, the vehicle is seized and not released until you show proof of insurance to the police department, who then issues an impound release so that you may retrieve your vehicle. If the car is unregistered as well, it can be released only if it is towed out. (you do have the right to choose which towing service for the tow home) If your car is registered, then you can drive it home.

How many of your legislators did the insurance industry buy to get that passed? And I'm sure that, what with the captive customer base, these towing companies are highly competitive, too.

Driving a car is like owning a firearm.

Driving a car ought to be like owning a firearm. I like this comparison. Because, owning a firearm in New Hampshire requires neither a license, nor insurance, nor registration, nor inspection.

[kola]

Joe,

So do you still take money from copgoons and fed-goons to do their dirty work?

Kola

[JDouglasFisher]

Meanwhile, it was estimated about 5 years ago that up to 1/3rd of all cars on the road in NJ were uninsured. Both the people and the insurance companies complained fiercely about the problem cause all to often, someone would be involved in a car crash with an individual who was uninsured. That means you and your car insurance company GOT BEAT because someone else was cheating the system.

Considering how profitable insurance is (you know this industry is richer than bankers, right?), no doubt they complained the state wasn't forcing people to purchase their services.

So they came up with the solution that we have today. IF your car is uninsured, and your pulled over, the vehicle is seized and not released until you show proof of insurance to the police department, who then issues an impound release so that you may retrieve your vehicle. If the car is unregistered as well, it can be released only if it is towed out. (you do have the right to choose which towing service for the tow home) If your car is registered, then you can drive it home.

How many of your legislators did the insurance industry buy to get that passed? And I'm sure that, what with the captive customer base, these towing companies are highly competitive, too.

Driving a car is like owning a firearm.

Driving a car ought to be like owning a firearm. I like this comparison. Because, owning a firearm in New Hampshire requires neither a license, nor insurance, nor registration, nor inspection.

In all fairness to the insurance companies, many were getting hammered pretty badly to the point that some of them stopped offering insurance in NJ because it was a money loser to them.

It took alot of work on the legislators part to convince companies like Geico to come to NJ when they normally wouldn't have. As much as Car insurance is a money making industry, they were losing it by the bucket loads here in NJ because, again 3 out of every 10 cars operating on the road at that time weren't insured, and as I said, if you got into an accident with one of these people, you and your insurance company GOT SCREWED..

As for being "Highly Competitive" you have to also keep in mind that every municipality has its own set of rates.. You are not allowed to deviate from them (or you risk losing your contract for that municipality). I tow for one town right now that hasn't raised (and refuses to) raise the towing rates for over 15 years. They are still charging $40.00 to hook, and a $1.75 a mile. As much as this is a money loser, my boss petitions the town council for an increase every year, especially when the average near me is usually in the realm of $85 to hook and $3.50 per loaded mile. With the costs associated to stay in the business, 40 and 1.75 just breaks even at this point, and surely isn't profitable by any means. My boss sticks with it only because its his childhood hometown, and he hopes that the council will wake up one day and see that they are killing him (and the other towers) financially.

as for NH, lets see...

Inspection. I like it for several reasons, it makes you maintain your vehicle. I'm not an environmental wacko by any means, however, what right do you have driving a car that is a pollution bomb, ruining the environment for the rest of us? This dosen't mean I think you should trade your car or truck for a bicycle, but please, it irks me when I see a car leaving a smoke screen behind them every where they go only because the owner has no respect for anyone else. Also, there are reasons why we have safety appliances such as directionals, brake lights, horn, brakes, etc. Do I think you should be failed for an out bulb? No. But if your brakes are steel on steel, and your car dosen't stop, then yes, it should fail.

Registration (License Plates). Although I question the need to have to renew it every year, I do think that if you own a vehicle, you should pay a small one time fee for a set of plates, for the life of the vehicle as you own it.. So whether you own it for 3 years or 10 years, you only pay once.

Insurance (in NH) admittedly, I personally would get it for myself, but I honestly don't know enough about it to speak wisely on the topic.

Drivers Licenses: I addressed the issue above, so there is no need to regurgitate it here.

[KBCraig]

+1 to Fisher, because I think you're a decent guy trying to break free of the police state.

My only counter is this: New Jersey is a totalitarian police state, and yet it's full of criminals. Insurance is mandatory, but uninsured motorists are a huge problem. Registration, driver licensing, and seatbelts are also mandatory, but the the first two are widely ignored, and even the governor doesn't wear his seatbelt.

Compare and contrast to NH. I don't even need to point out the differences.

Registration and driver licensing do nothing to ensure that drivers are safe. As you rightly point out, unlicensed drivers of unregistered cars still evade responsibility, despite the law.

[JDouglasFisher]

Kola,

what are you talking about?

Joe.

[JDouglasFisher]

Craig,

Its not that I am trying to break free of a police state, its the fact that I kinda try to "do the right thing" by people because I was fortunate enough to have some people help me out over the years.

I just cannot support a completely anarchistic state in which your solely relying on a persons honesty... Unfortunately, I have seen way to many people do everything and anything they can to get over on someone else. To not have registration or drivers license would only allow people to become completely haphazard in their driving knowing that their recklessness dosen't carry a punishment.

I can see it now "I'm sorry Mr Smith to report that your 12 year old daughter is dead.. What was that? Oh no sir, we don't know who it was, and only have a description of a Blue Merc. License Plate? Nope, we don't require them in NH, sorry.."

Yeah, this dosen't work..

You have to have some level of law, though we all agree that minimal is best...

Joe.

[kola]

I assumed you were (or still are) a towtruck driver.

Kola

[error]

I can see it now "I'm sorry Mr Smith to report that your 12 year old daughter is dead.. What was that? Oh no sir, we don't know who it was, and only have a description of a Blue Merc. License Plate? Nope, we don't require them in NH, sorry.."

I don't buy this.

The reason I don't buy this is my personal experience of having driven over 10,000 miles in cars without any license plates whatsoever, many years ago.

By and large, people don't even pay attention to the license plate area. Even cops.

In one egregious case, I was traveling through rural Kansas in the middle of the night, with nobody else on the road, with the cruise set at 69. A state trooper, with his cruise set at 70, crawls up behind me in the other lane and crawls right past me. In a car with no plates of any kind on it. He didn't even try.

Of course, the license plate is no guarantee of anything; you yourself pointed out that people switch them around all the time and that such people are very hard to track down.

If people want to evade responsibility then they will find ways to do that. But it's been my experience that most people who evade responsibility have never learned anything about freedom.

[J’raxis 270145]

Those all sound like good arguments. But you likened driving a car with owning a gun, in the responsibility that they entail. Why don't your arguments apply to gun ownership? Why am I not required to possess a license for, register, insure, and have inspected, a firearm?

[JDouglasFisher]

I assumed you were (or still are) a towtruck driver.

Kola

Kola, Municipal contracts as far as I know, don't work like that.. The police department dosen't pay us for the services (unless we tow one of their cars).. Vehicle Owners (or their respective insurance companies) pay us. So NO, I don't take money from "COP GOONS" to do their dirty work..

Error

I don't buy this.

The reason I don't buy this is my personal experience of having driven over 10,000 miles in cars without any license plates whatsoever, many years ago.

By and large, people don't even pay attention to the license plate area. Even cops.

Perhaps in your experience license plates don't mean a thing, but I can tell you that in NJ, EVERYONE reads plates. Realize, even if the person who does a "hit and Run" flees the scene with the vehicle, then proceeds to change plates, unless the plates were fictitious in the first place, in most cases you'll know who the R.O. is. From there, its easier to locate who fled the scene.

Also, I don't buy the argument that just because you can somehow get away with it, means that its alright to do...

J'Rax

Those all sound like good arguments. But you likened driving a car with owning a gun, in the responsibility that they entail. Why don't your arguments apply to gun ownership? Why am I not required to possess a license for, register, insure, and have inspected, a firearm?

They don't for the simple reason that a firearm is not something that the general populous as a whole handles everyday. Most cannot tell the difference between a glock 9mm and a revolver for instance.

Most people on the other hand can tell the difference between a Chevy Tahoe and a Honda Civic.

Also, the relevancy isn't the same. If someone is shot, the cop isn't going to ask what make and model gun was the perpetraitor using. They may ask if it was a handgun or a rifle, but the specifics at this time is not important. Ballistics will yield those results later.

In the case of a struck pedestrian however, the cops will ask make, model, color, plate, etc.. This is vital because the vehicle is "at large" and questioning the driver is of vital importance.

Also, on the other side of the coin,

Lets say your car is stolen... Your chances of getting it back are greatly increased if the theft is immediately reported, and if there is a set of license plates on it. If you own a Honda Accord that is silver (the most popular color) and your in a state where there is no license plate required, forget about ever getting your car back. The police aren't going to find it based solely on V.I.N.

Joe.

[penguins4me]

Kola, Municipal contracts as far as I know, don't work like that.. The police department dosen't pay us for the services (unless we tow one of their cars).. Vehicle Owners (or their respective insurance companies) pay us. So NO, I don't take money from "COP GOONS" to do their dirty work..

J's correct. Unfortunately, the real situation makes him look even worse: a tow-truck operator takes a vehicle to a fairly secure impound lot and refuses to release it until a significant ransom fee is paid by the owner, who probably didn't want his car towed in the first place, and certainly not to an impound lot not of his choosing. Damn near to theft in some cases from my point of view.

[JDouglasFisher]

Kola, Municipal contracts as far as I know, don't work like that.. The police department dosen't pay us for the services (unless we tow one of their cars).. Vehicle Owners (or their respective insurance companies) pay us. So NO, I don't take money from "COP GOONS" to do their dirty work..

J's correct. Unfortunately, the real situation makes him look even worse: a tow-truck operator takes a vehicle to a fairly secure impound lot and refuses to release it until a significant ransom fee is paid by the owner, who probably didn't want his car towed in the first place, and certainly not to an impound lot not of his choosing. Damn near to theft in some cases from my point of view.

I just have to ask this... What am I supposed to do? Not tow the car because a few radical people who believe in anarchy insist that it is wrong for me to follow the directions of the police department?

Listen folks, police contracts can yield a pretty penny. Thats a fact. The downside of it is that unfortunately, contracting with a municipality means that there will be times when I will be requested to perform a service which I personally may not agree with. However, if I refuse, there goes my contract, and deffinately going to have to lay off some people. Listen, your state laws require you to have a D.L. and Registration at minimum. In fact, if I am not mistaken, thats a federal requirement. If you don't like your state laws, get ahold of one of your 400 representatives in your legislature and have them repealed. But don't damn me and make me out to be a bastard just because of few of you decide that the only way to freedom is through anarchy.

I still stand by my convictions that you need a D.L. and Registration minimum. I would advise insurance to anyone (though not necessary) and deffinately agree with motor vehicle inspections (we have them every 2 years now in NJ, MVC actually fixed that right..) We have motor vehicle laws in the United States because we are civilized. You want to see what life is like driving without licenses, license plates and insurance? Check out any south american country. Hell, even Mexico is a good start, and see how bad things are with pollution, needless deaths from accidents, horrible road conditions, etc.

Yeah, am I blowing a gasket, your damned right I am now. This is completely retarded. If you don't want a D.L. or a License Plate, GO RIDE A HORSE... Atleast when the beast dies, you can feed your family.

Joe. 

[error]

Welcome to the Underground, where it's guaranteed somebody's going to disagree with you about something, especially if it involves what government should or should not be doing.

I suggest you not let it get to you. Save your gasket-blowing for the tyrants.

We are, after all, on roughly the same journey toward greater freedom, even if we disagree as to how to get there and what paths to take.

Don't take it personally either. Most people around here have a low tolerance for tyranny in any form, even one as well-intentioned as the driver license.

[kola]

Kola, Municipal contracts as far as I know, don't work like that.. The police department dosen't pay us for the services (unless we tow one of their cars).. Vehicle Owners (or their respective insurance companies) pay us. So NO, I don't take money from "COP GOONS" to do their dirty work..

J's correct. Unfortunately, the real situation makes him look even worse: a tow-truck operator takes a vehicle to a fairly secure impound lot and refuses to release it until a significant ransom fee is paid by the owner, who probably didn't want his car towed in the first place, and certainly not to an impound lot not of his choosing. Damn near to theft in some cases from my point of view.

yep, THEFT.

..but "he's just doin his job" HUH??

I tell everyone who carries out "goon orders" to get a REAL job. Joe, if you want to sell your soul out, that is your choice. Continue to ruin lives and steal money. The Sacred Wheel of Life is a circle. IOW You get what you give.

troll.

Kola