Offically done with nay sayers...I've got to get this off my chest.

[RattyDog]

I am sorry if it seems like I am attacking you Rattydog or any of the gang working on the Manchester Free Press. You are one of my favorite people in NH and I am shocked and sad because you feel attacked (and because my wife is really mad at me). I am surprised and excited that you are going to have a baby. No way would I put you on ignore, although I sometimes don't read all of your really long posts. I think that sometimes my humor is not working on this forum. I don't know if I should hold back on some of the sarcasm. I was assuming that I couldn't hurt your feelings, so I have been cutting loose like I do with dada, loyd (I took back the l), patk, and similar friends.

Sometimes I have wanted to push you guys to get started, because I would like to see the paper up and running already. I don't think you guys have ruined your chances of success or have done damage to our movement in any way. I am sorry if I have caused any other people to attack you about your paper. I don't think you guys should make your paper like the Keene Free Press and I don't mind that we are dissimilar yet share a similar name. Since we have been distributing in Manchester, I was going to stop doing that if your paper turned out like ours. Since it will turn out very different than ours, I don't think I will be stepping on your toes to continue passing out our paper in the Manchester area. I didn't come to your meeting, because I can't come to manchester very often and because I cannot contribute to your paper, so my presence would be as a member of the peanut gallery or cheering section. I had hoped that in your first meeting I had made my support known. If you guys want to know anything about our paper, you can ask me, but otherwise I will steer really clear of commenting on your paper in any way except glowing terms.

The possible name change for our paper doesn't have anything to do with you guys. In fact if someone continues the Keene Free Press name, I will be happy that "we" have 2 "regional" papers up and running. I don't think that I own your paper. Since I have know from the start that your paper was going to be very different, I started trying to connect you guys with others who wanted to be associated with a paper of your style. I hope that has been working. I know many people prefer your guy's style.

I think it is a good idea if the Manchester Free Press starts up a forum. I might have to stay off of it, so I don't make anyone mad.

Russell,

I have been so fond of you and Kat since I've known you....two of the coolest cats around. That's why I've grown so frustrated! The paper is doing so well, the little place we're carving out for ourselves in this community is special to me, becuase it is becoming more and more clear that it is not only people within this movement who have been waiting for a paper...the people in our neighborhoods over here have also been waiting. There is no representation for these folks in the media...a lot of them feel so very strongly about what are clearly liberty related issues in their neighborhoods and they have no idea that they are talking like libertarians! It's just so exciting...work is being done, things are good, it just felt sucky to feel like because it wasn';t happening on someone elses schedule it wasn't good enough or something. It's not that I'm being whiney and can't take the negativity....I just feel frustrated because it feels like there is a lack of respect for our process and method of getting this paper to succeed. Sometimes, I think, you can be kind of hard on people...but you know that. I understand why you are that way.

I have no hard feelings...I only wish you guys were closer so we could hang around more! I wasn't only speaking to you in my original post...I wanted to throw my feeling out that there is way too much nay saying in general. I love the activism I see all around me...all of the different kinds...I think we should be proud of each other.

I have appreciated the help you gave us and people you connected us with in the beginning stages of this project, thank you.



Natalie

[RattyDog]

It's super helpful to read and actually think about the words you are responding to before you respond. I think you would find it most helpful in engaging people to listen to what they say before you open your face and start talking back. But thanks for the reply.

^  An example of a rhetorical device called a "phuck you phrase."    Also known as... "cutting someone dead," a "cold one," the "soft knife" and other you-get-the-picture kinds of labels.  Starts out polite, ends polite.  I'd call it a barbed wire sandwich. 

[Just keeping track.]

You could stop keeping track if you wanted! 

[Lloyd Danforth]

It's super helpful to read and actually think about the words you are responding to before you respond. I think you would find it most helpful in engaging people to listen to what they say before you open your face and start talking back. But thanks for the reply.

^  An example of a rhetorical device called a "phuck you phrase."    Also known as... "cutting someone dead," a "cold one," the "soft knife" and other you-get-the-picture kinds of labels.  Starts out polite, ends polite.  I'd call it a barbed wire sandwich. 

[Just keeping track.]

Yes,  I believe Ayn Rand mentioned the "phuck you phrase." in her discourse of 'the argument from intimidation'.

[grasshopper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sthn8wSKrJM
   Go Ratty!

[Russell Kanning]

I have no hard feelings...I only wish you guys were closer so we could hang around more!

If we lived in Manchester, we could be helping you guys with the paper ... but ... we are country bumpkins.
If you guys are making plans on the internet somewhere and would like our input, we can chime in that way.

[EJinCT]

IME, assumptions typically lead to misunderstandings. Internet communication is also further hindered in that  meanings can easily get misinterpreted by written word alone; also further complicating interpretation is the state of our own psyche at the time of reading.

Glad to see you guys working this out in a mature manner. 

[grasshopper]

   Well, we know what we are all doing wrong....   How do we fix it?  "I have a suggestion" is a hell of a lot better to hear than "Why did you do it that way", or, "I think it should be done like this".
   I tell people that want me to do projects for them to "give suggestions instead of criticisim".  My x girlfriend already told me what I do wrong 
   I'm going to go to the mfp thread!

[dan_sayers]

It's super helpful to read and actually think about the words you are responding to before you respond. I think you would find it most helpful in engaging people to listen to what they say before you open your face and start talking back. But thanks for the reply.

As a note of final irony, if you're truly against nay saying as you term it, you might want to refrain from hostile verbiage such as "are you out of your mind?" Particularly if your reason for attack is merely that somebody offered their input or because their input differed from yours. People spend a lot more time looking for Mr. Right than trying to BE Mr. Right

Thank you for making my point. I have an excerpt from a poem for you before I excuse myself from this thread:

You Tell On Yourself By Friends You Seek
By Very Manner In Which You Speak
By Way You Employ Your Leisure Time
By How You Spend Your Dollar And Dime,

You Tell On Yourself By Things You Wear
By The Spirit In Which Your Burdens Bear
By Things At Which You're Made To Laugh
By Records You Play On Your Phonograph,

You Tell What You Are By Way You Walk
By Things In Which You Delight To Talk
By Manner In Which You Bear Defeat
By So Simple Thing As How You Eat
By Books You Choose From Well Filled Shelf,
In These Way's And More You Tell On Yourself

[RattyDog]

It's super helpful to read and actually think about the words you are responding to before you respond. I think you would find it most helpful in engaging people to listen to what they say before you open your face and start talking back. But thanks for the reply.

As a note of final irony, if you're truly against nay saying as you term it, you might want to refrain from hostile verbiage such as "are you out of your mind?" Particularly if your reason for attack is merely that somebody offered their input or because their input differed from yours. People spend a lot more time looking for Mr. Right than trying to BE Mr. Right

Thank you for making my point. I have an excerpt from a poem for you before I excuse myself from this thread:

You Tell On Yourself By Friends You Seek
By Very Manner In Which You Speak
By Way You Employ Your Leisure Time
By How You Spend Your Dollar And Dime,

You Tell On Yourself By Things You Wear
By The Spirit In Which Your Burdens Bear
By Things At Which You're Made To Laugh
By Records You Play On Your Phonograph,

You Tell What You Are By Way You Walk
By Things In Which You Delight To Talk
By Manner In Which You Bear Defeat
By So Simple Thing As How You Eat
By Books You Choose From Well Filled Shelf,
In These Way's And More You Tell On Yourself

Dan:

My reply to you was made in hopes that you will think I'm a huuuuge witch and never, ever, post directly to me again. As far as I've been able to see, your posts are a waste of time. I have witnessed you, on a few occasions now, posting a reply to a message you CLEARLY have not read all the way through and I dislike very very much having to read a reply to a post I've made where the replying poster has the balls to give me shit with a superior attitude and this person hasn't even read my original post. It's infuriating. I'm getting more agitated by the second here.

I'm feeling a little snarky this afternoon, so forgive me if I'm a little over the top, but really, truly, if you're not going to read someone's post all the way through, don't reply. If you read it and don't understand, fine, ask clarifying questions....but DO NOT think that you can speak to me in condescending tones after having not even read my freakin' post!!  You don't even know me, man, who do you think you are?

With respect, but no desire to speak further with you,

Ratty Dog

Edit to add: And another thing....speaking of "being" Mr. Right (vomit) your reply to me felt incredibly callous and I really didn't appreciate it. I was being open and sincere in my wish to vent frustration and you totally came out of nowhere, again, without even knowing me, with some bullshit. Not appreciated. In the least.

[shyfrog]

If I step on a landmine, I'm sure I'll know after the fact...

So here goes the light stepping.

I really think there has been some serious misinterpretation regarding dan_sayers responses.
I found myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what he had to say and thought it was actually quite balanced and thought out.

At the same time, I found a lot of what RattyDog said to also be relevant and on target.

With that said, I'll go check and see if I have any body parts missing. 

[RattyDog]

If I step on a landmine, I'm sure I'll know after the fact...

So here goes the light stepping.

I really think there has been some serious misinterpretation regarding dan_sayers responses.
I found myself nodding in agreement with a lot of what he had to say and thought it was actually quite balanced and thought out.

At the same time, I found a lot of what RattyDog said to also be relevant and on target.

With that said, I'll go check and see if I have any body parts missing. 

Damn you Shyfrog!! :shakes fist:

Just joking! No, I really had a problem with his first reply to my original message...this person started his reply with "Well, I know I don't know any of the details here, but..." and he was right, he didn't have a freaking clue what he was talking about. Not only that, but it was clear to me that he hadn't read the post the whole way through. I know it was long....but if you're going to speak in condescending tones to a person you don't even know....you should read the whole post. He must have barely skimmed it...ugh.

Anyway...no land mines!! No missing body parts!!

[srqrebel]

I, too, sense a real danger of stepping on landmines after observing the knee-jerk reactions to certain well-meaning posts in this thread -- but I have always been one to speak my mind, and I won't stop now.

Natalie, I have always enjoyed your eloquently summed up posts.  You always seem to get the big picture, and your delivery is impeccable.  I have often thought that you would make a wonderful spokesperson for our movement.  What you have been posting here seems way out of character for you.  I'm sure it is because you are on an emotional roller coaster right now, and that certainly can be expected in your present situation.

To be sure, Dan does not know the details of your situation, but he had the presence of mind to acknowledge that up front.  What followed was meant to be read with that in mind.  Speaking for myself, I have been impressed with Dan's input throughout this forum, and I appreciate his well thought out commentary.  I also appreciate that he refuses to participate in personal attacks, and makes an effort to diffuse tensions.  He calls it as he sees it, and if he is wrong, he deserves to be courteously corrected, not attacked.

Sorry about everything you have been going through lately.  I can only try to imagine what it is like.  Hope you feel better soon! 

And by the way, congratulations!

[RattyDog]

I, too, sense a real danger of stepping on landmines after observing the knee-jerk reactions to certain well-meaning posts in this thread -- but I have always been one to speak my mind, and I won't stop now.

Natalie, I have always enjoyed your eloquently summed up posts.  You always seem to get the big picture, and your delivery is impeccable.  I have often thought that you would make a wonderful spokesperson for our movement.  What you have been posting here seems way out of character for you.  I'm sure it is because you are on an emotional roller coaster right now, and that certainly can be expected in your present situation.

To be sure, Dan does not know the details of your situation, but he had the presence of mind to acknowledge that up front.  What followed was meant to be read with that in mind.  Speaking for myself, I have been impressed with Dan's input throughout this forum, and I appreciate his well thought out commentary.  I also appreciate that he refuses to participate in personal attacks, and makes an effort to diffuse tensions.  He calls it as he sees it, and if he is wrong, he deserves to be courteously corrected, not attacked.

Sorry about everything you have been going through lately.  I can only try to imagine what it is like.  Hope you feel better soon! 

And by the way, congratulations!

Thank you for your kind words and support.

I think, I think I am right here. I think my reaction to Dan was, while snippy, on target....but, I am also a lunatic right now and am dealing with some "swings" in mood.

I can admit when I'm wrong and right now, while I feel I am right....I can accept that I am not seeing things through a lens I normally would, and so, because I trust you people to tell it to me straight, can accept that maybe I'm not seeing this clearly. Dan....if I have been unfair to you, rude without cause, or have misinterpreted your words because of some personal stuff I've got going on with me right now, I am truly sorry. That is unfair to you and not very adult behavior on my part. If you feel that you posted to me what you did with the true intention of making a casual observation and to be helpful...I really am sorry for being venomous toward you. I really am a nice person...and while I feel I was justified in my reposes to you...again, if the bright and on point people on this board think I've been unfair, I think it's more probable than not that I have been.

Thanks again Rebel.

[Tom Sawyer]

I'll wade in here a little bit.

I'm kind of like Ratty (I think) because I am creative and driven... what goes with that is sensitive and direct.

People posting should stop and think for a moment that they have no idea what others might be going through on the other end of this internet connection.

Single folks need to remember that the responsibilities and demands of being a parent can be tremendous. Many of us have a lot of other responsibilities and demands placed upon our time.

Lots of times you come to the forum to relax from all the other stuff that is wearing you down. Enjoyment and socially connecting is a big part of what keeps people coming back. Instead some masterdebater grabs hold of something you said and demands it be defended, tearing it down to one word they can seize upon to "win" the debate. That is just a plain drag. The Endless Whining and Debate section is there for a reason, use it. 

People telling the forum how they "feel" about something is not an invitation to debate. In fact if we listen we can maybe learn something instead of trying to show off the last piece of libertarian philosophy we have formulated.

It is not necessarily a bad thing to tell someone off or put them in their place. It is how boundaries are established and defended. I read an article where the author was in a third world country without any real "titles" to property. He noted that you could tell when you crossed from one property to the next by the next dog barking at you. Ratty is just barking to defend her place. 

[Pat K]

I would like it to be noted that I am
showing tremendous restraint here!!

I have a nice USMC drill instructor
reply for Rogers post.

But I won't post it.