Paul Tibbetts- pilot of the Enola Gay R.I.P. Nov.2,2007

[Riddler]

A tip of the hat & a salute to this guy.
Instrumental in ending WWII

[Faber]

A tip of the hat & a salute to this guy.
Instrumental in ending WWII killing over 100,000 innocent civilians

Fixed your post.

[Little Owl]

Wow, I didn't know he was still (until yesterday) alive.  While we're saluting him, lets take a moment to urinate on the graves of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg whose cowardly acts resulted in the oppression of millions and six decades of threatened nuclear annihilation.

He didn't kill 100,000 innocent civilians, the Japanese government did.  He just provided the tool.

[Faber]

What do you mean by that, Little Owl?

[KBCraig]

It's possible to salute Paul Tibbets for his skill as a pilot, and his bravery in accepting what looked like a suicide mission, while at the same time decrying the politicians' decision to bomb a city of little military importance.

[Riddler]

Sorry....you are wrong.
The Japanese generals' & emperor's absolute arrogance killed >100,000 civillians. too 'proud' to surrender or accept inevitable defeat killed >100,000 unnecessarily...
Every man, woman, able-bodied child was training & preparing for an invasion, and to fight to the death.
The bombings actually saved lives..

[Faber]

Would you salute the Japanese kamikazes for their bravery at Pearl Harbor?

[Riddler]

Would you salute the Japanese kamikazes for their bravery at Pearl Harbor?

no jackass, they were the agressor...they instigated the war.

[ThePug]

The US was wrong to demand "unconditional surrender". The Japanese had already offered to surrender if they were allowed to keep the Emperor (which was of course later allowed any way), but the Allies rejected it solely because it wasn't "unconditional".

It was wrong to bomb Hiroshima (and Nagasaki and all the other cities that were firebombed, including a raid on Tokyo that killed more people), but it was preferable to an invasion. Even better would have been if the Allies had backed down on their "unconditional surrender" bit and negotiated an end to the war.

As for Tibbets, he was just the guy-on-the-ground. The moral responsibility falls with Truman and the higher-ups.

[Faber]

Very insightful, Pug.  Not many people know that bit about unconditional surrender.  I would add that Cold War politics played a part in the decision as well.  First, the US wanted to show the Russians that it had the bomb and it was powerful.  It was suggested that the US test the bomb in public on a deserted island to display its effects, but the US wanted a real live demonstration.  Second, the US wanted a quick surrender to occur before the USSR had a chance to enter the war against Japan, because the US wanted to control the island for itself.

I've seen statistics that showed that a land invasion would not have killed as many as died in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention the firebombing of Tokyo), though certainly more Americans would have died.

I would only quibble with your last paragraph.  "I was just following orders" is a very poor moral defense.

[J’raxis 270145]

http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=377

[Kat Kanning]

Would you salute the Japanese kamikazes for their bravery at Pearl Harbor?

There weren't any kamikazes at Pearl Harbor. (There weren't any American carriers or fast battleships at Pearl Harbor, either... think about that.)

Anyway, "bravery" in my mind doesn't refer to mindless caving in to authority... on either side. Someone who stands up to their own society and refuses to kill... that's brave.

[Faber]

Quite right, Kat.  I mean, there were some pilots who, once hit, decided to crash into US ships rather than try to continue an air fight, but that's distinctly different from the dedicated kamikaze missions later in the war.

And I agree with your definition of bravery.  If Paul Tibbets had stood up and refused to kill over 100,000 civilians, he would have been brave.

[Tom Sawyer]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki by Ralph Raico

Thus, the rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has gained surprising currency: that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives. These, supposedly, are the lives that would have been lost in the planned invasion of Kyushu in December, then in the all-out invasion of Honshu the next year, if that was needed. But the worst-case scenario for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese home islands was forty-six thousand American lives lost. The ridiculously inflated figure of a half-million for the potential death toll – nearly twice the total of U.S. dead in all theaters in the Second World War – is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators. Unsurprisingly, the prize for sheer fatuousness on this score goes to President George H.W. Bush, who claimed in 1991 that dropping the bomb "spared millions of American lives."

The bombings were condemned as barbaric and unnecessary by high American military officers, including Eisenhower and MacArthur. The view of Admiral William D. Leahy, Truman's own chief of staff, was typical:

the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

[Pat McCotter]

An Air Force General, an Army General, a Marine General and a Navy Admiral were all arguing about which service had the bravest men. The argument got so heated that the Air Force General called over one of his men.

"Airman!" he said. "Climb to the top of that radar tower and jump off!"

The airman saluted, said whatever it is airmen say (up, up and away, or something) and climbed to the top of the tower and jumped off. Splat!

The Air Force General smiled and said, "That's how brave my boys are."

Not to be outdone, the Army General called over one of his men. "Soldier, climb to the top of that tower and make me proud."

The soldier climbed to the top of the tower, un-slung his rifle and jumped off, firing all the way to the round. Splat!

The Army General just smiled at the other officers.

The Marine General snorted and called over one of his Marines. "Marine!" he barked. "Climb to the top of that tower and show them what real men are made of!"

The Marine climbed to the top of the tower, pulled out a hand grenade, pulled the pin and stuffed it in his mouth. Then he pulled out two 45's and jumped, firing into the air as he fell. And exploded half way to the ground. Boom!

The Marine General smiled and said, "Let's see any of your pansies top that."

The Admiral pulled out a cigar, and while rolling it between his fingers, called over a Sailor.

"Sailor." he said, "Climb to the top of that tower and jump off."

The Sailor looked at the tower, and then back at the Admiral. "Screw you, sir." He said.

The Admiral turned to the generals as he lit up his cigar. "That, gentlemen," he said as he puffed the cigar, "takes real guts!"