Ethan Allen

[Friday]

Let me preface my bitching by saying that I really enjoy this forum, am grateful to the owners for providing it as a fun and useful virtual meeting place for NH liberty lovers, and I just made a voluntary contribution to help cover its expenses.

OK, now to the bitching... 

I'm getting tired of relative newbs dismissing Ethan Allen as a "troll".  He is not a troll.  He lives here in New Hampshire (which is more than a lot of y'all can say), has attended PorcFest and Liberty Forum, is active in state politics, and is fighting for greater liberty as he sees it in the manner in which he chooses.  Yes, he is an incorrigible thread hi-jacker, but that applies to many people.  He also has an outrageously one-track mind when it comes to Georgist philosophy.  But troll?  No.  Actually, I think that derogatory term has been getting quite a lot of use in these parts lately.  Just cuz you don't like someone, or don't agree with them on a particular issue, does NOT make them a troll.

troll
An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.
(1994-10-17) Modern Language Association (MLA):
"troll." The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing. Denis Howe. 03 Nov. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/troll>.

I'd like to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the reason(s) why EA was banned.  Is it accurate to say that he was banned because he edited a few of another user's posts in a humorous way, publicly acknowledging that he did so, and with the standard "Edited by so-and-so at such-and-such time" notice clearly visible on each of the affected posts that he had done so?  Are there any rules posted against utilizing this functionality of the forum?  Were any warnings issued to him prior to him getting banned?  I understand that it's not my forum and I don't make the rules; I just want to see if there's more to the story than I'm aware of? 

[error]

Editing another user's posts is an extreme violation of trust online. If I caught the admins doing this, I'd walk out, never come back, and tell everyone who ever asked me about the forum. A user was able to do it due to a configuration problem with the software, which I understand has been fixed. Yet it's my understanding that his intention wasn't to be humorous. To intentionally misrepresent someone else's words in a discussion is bad enough. To attempt to make it so that it seems someone said the opposite of what they did is beyond the pale.

[J’raxis 270145]

Ethan Allen did two things that make me consider him a troll.

One, he used to regurgitate the same arguments over and over, ignoring the fact that they'd been refuted in the past, ignoring people's attempts at refutation in the present by just changing the subject, and so on. Russell told me once that he actually copies and pastes old posts over again, in answer to new arguments. This sort of "bad faith" debating style pegs someone as a troll for me. (This is actually a classic trolling technique used on Slashdot: they re-post old threads that started a controversy, just to sit back and watch the same flamewar erupt anew.)

Two, more recently he's made posts that indicate that he's probably not even serious about his Georgist beliefs. People always accused him of being a closet socialist (in the welfare statist sense), a crypto-statist, and so on, but he usually stuck with just defending the Georgist property tax and nothing else. Then, during the death tax thread that Malum Prohibitum started, he suddenly came along and starts defending the tax! Since that point he suddenly started making more and more pro-statist arguments beyond defending property taxes. This makes me think he really just likes to make anti-libertarian arguments in order to rile people up.

Conclusion: Troll.

I think the reason he got banned is because so many people disliked, and mistrusted, him for the above reasons, and after he did something blatantly abusive, it was a "last straw" of sorts.

[CNHT]

Editing another user's posts is an extreme violation of trust online. If I caught the admins doing this, I'd walk out, never come back, and tell everyone who ever asked me about the forum. A user was able to do it due to a configuration problem with the software, which I understand has been fixed. Yet it's my understanding that his intention wasn't to be humorous. To intentionally misrepresent someone else's words in a discussion is bad enough. To attempt to make it so that it seems someone said the opposite of what they did is beyond the pale.

Exactly - thank you error. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you should. No one else did. This goes for admins who fiddle with karma when they feel like it too.
Another case of 'just because you own the forum and can, doesn't make it morally right either'. It's not the same as being on my property and I catch you stealing so I can shoot -- that's different. This is character assassination.

If you're going to live without government then you're going to have to be honest. The fact that we could alter posts since Kat moved the forum to a new server quite a while back did not tempt anyone else to do it, even though we've all known for a long time that we could.

Also, I've seen many potential freestaters quite turned off to discover people here who are pro-globalism, pro-socialism, pro-UN, pro-taxes, anti-private property, etc and actually some who have turned around and gone home because of it. I think most people who discover the FSP interpret the word 'free' to mean freedom from government, not 'free to take from government' like the hippies in the 60's who felt it was the wealthy's job to make everything available to them and thus preached class warfare and communal property, divvied up by the government.

The whole Vermont secession movement was part and parcel of the UN's Agenda 21. EA even had that removed from his website after I pointed it out.
The UN is very sneaky and if you see my post on some of the DVDs I plan to buy and show, you will see how they've worked their way into our local government structures using malcontented people and groups (such as the Council of Churches, the UUs, etc) as their useful political idiots. I believe EA with his whole Vt thing was one such useful idiot/organization. If you think seceding to 'Acadia' is moving toward an organization of less retstraint you are just deluding yourself. Welcome to the world of punishments for speech and world courts.

[Lasse]

Ethan Allen did two things that make me consider him a troll.

One, he used to regurgitate the same arguments over and over, ignoring the fact that they'd been refuted in the past, ignoring people's attempts at refutation in the present by just changing the subject, and so on. Russell told me once that he actually copies and pastes old posts over again, in answer to new arguments. This sort of "bad faith" debating style pegs someone as a troll for me. (This is actually a classic trolling technique used on Slashdot: they re-post old threads that started a controversy, just to sit back and watch the same flamewar erupt anew.)

Two, more recently he's made posts that indicate that he's probably not even serious about his Georgist beliefs. People always accused him of being a closet socialist (in the welfare statist sense), a crypto-statist, and so on, but he usually stuck with just defending the Georgist property tax and nothing else. Then, during the death tax thread that Malum Prohibitum started, he suddenly came along and starts defending the tax! Since that point he suddenly started making more and more pro-statist arguments beyond defending property taxes. This makes me think he really just likes to make anti-libertarian arguments in order to rile people up.

Conclusion: Troll.

I think the reason he got banned is because so many people disliked, and mistrusted, him for the above reasons, and after he did something blatantly abusive, it was a "last straw" of sorts.

I can remember him defending all sorts of welfare state systems under the 'social contract' BS. He didn't try to hide his true self.

[J’raxis 270145]

Ethan Allen did two things that make me consider him a troll.

One, he used to regurgitate the same arguments over and over, ignoring the fact that they'd been refuted in the past, ignoring people's attempts at refutation in the present by just changing the subject, and so on. Russell told me once that he actually copies and pastes old posts over again, in answer to new arguments. This sort of "bad faith" debating style pegs someone as a troll for me. (This is actually a classic trolling technique used on Slashdot: they re-post old threads that started a controversy, just to sit back and watch the same flamewar erupt anew.)

Two, more recently he's made posts that indicate that he's probably not even serious about his Georgist beliefs. People always accused him of being a closet socialist (in the welfare statist sense), a crypto-statist, and so on, but he usually stuck with just defending the Georgist property tax and nothing else. Then, during the death tax thread that Malum Prohibitum started, he suddenly came along and starts defending the tax! Since that point he suddenly started making more and more pro-statist arguments beyond defending property taxes. This makes me think he really just likes to make anti-libertarian arguments in order to rile people up.

Conclusion: Troll.

I think the reason he got banned is because so many people disliked, and mistrusted, him for the above reasons, and after he did something blatantly abusive, it was a "last straw" of sorts.

I can remember him defending all sorts of welfare state systems under the 'social contract' BS. He didn't try to hide his true self.

I might be mistaken, but I remember him being straight-up Georgist—defending the property tax "economic rent" nearly exclusively—until fairly recently, when he started rooting for estate taxes, auto registration fees, and a myriad of other similar things.

[Russell Kanning]

Bill changing cnht's posts was the last straw. I have both of them on ignore, so I don't know what happened.

I just quess like others that Bill cuts and pastes .... since it is all the same, but I wouldn't get rid of him for that. I do similar stuff.

I don't think 'troll' is the perfect word for Bill. We have a variety of annoying characters on this forum, they each have their own category.

But sometime we will ask people to leave our forum, and sometimes we will kick them off, since they will not leave. I found Bill annoying online, so I will not miss him. I even agree with him on some stuff, but this forum was not invented to let annoying people debate each other, we just happen to put up with a lot of it.

We don't make money on this forum, so it is for our own use, enjoyment, and to further the nonviolent revolution here in NH.

[Friday]

We don't make money on this forum, so it is for our own use, enjoyment, and to further the nonviolent revolution here in NH.

Understood.  And like I said, I just sent you $20 via Kat's PayPal account.  But as an annoying and argumentative person myself  , I feel the need to come to the defense of another forum denizen who, as far as I'm aware, is guilty of little more than being annoying, argumentative and making a joke that some people found funny and others didn't (another thing that has gotten me into a lot of trouble at various times).  FWIW, I liked having Bill around and hope he is able to return one day.

[Fluff and Stuff]

Bill was wonderful to meet in person.  He seems to enjoy life and it quite friendly.  However, he does act like a troll online.  He seems to be better, though.  He stopped trolling the FTL BBS, thank gawd (although many people there don't even mind trolls).  Frankly, I have never seen someone defend a troll quite like Friday has...does it mean more

[David]

I've defended Ethan Allen numerous times, because he seems to be a likable guy.  I am the Defender of the Universe,...or at least the defender of Ethan.  I don't agree with much that he says, except his agorism, but he did not usually attack people personally, and remained respectful. 
Further, for those that don't like someone, Ignore them.  I don't officially ignore anyone, but I don't waste time reading idiots posts either. 

[CNHT]

I've defended Ethan Allen numerous times, because he seems to be a likable guy.  I am the Defender of the Universe,...or at least the defender of Ethan.  I don't agree with much that he says, except his agorism, but he did not usually attack people personally, and remained respectful. 
Further, for those that don't like someone, Ignore them.  I don't officially ignore anyone, but I don't waste time reading idiots posts either. 

Well you missed it then because he did plenty of name-calling and denigrating of others and when he could not argue about something would resort to copy-pasting that land tax foolishness and then demanding you define whatever words you used.

[CNHT]

Bill was wonderful to meet in person.  He seems to enjoy life and it quite friendly.  However, he does act like a troll online.  He seems to be better, though.  He stopped trolling the FTL BBS, thank gawd (although many people there don't even mind trolls).  Frankly, I have never seen someone defend a troll quite like Friday has...does it mean more

EA made this place fun and entertaining. He will be missed.

If you miss denigration and name-calling.... which most of us don't.

[kola]

I can stomach almost any postings or just flat out iggy them but I do not care for someone who edits other peoples post. IMO if they do that, they are capable of other wrongdoings. It is kinda violating, yes?

Kola

[CNHT]

It's not just that, but if asked, I would tell you the same things I say on this forum, to your face....my opinions don't change.

With EA he acted like he had no tongue whenever I saw him.

So, he was just showing false bravado that the anonymity of the forum afforded him.

At least I am honest and will speak my mind no matter where.

I didn't like his taxation and secession schemes, told him I thought they were Marxist-inspired and so he went on the attack.
I knew I could alter his posts for months, but would NEVER do that.

It's called, who can you trust.

[Fragilityh14]

in my years of using forums I don't remember ever ignoring someone before Ethan Allen