Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[CNHT]

Jane this crap has it's roots in the Drug War...
Money Laundering, Asset Forfeiture, etc... Federal power like never seen before. The prosecutors don't even have to go to court in 95% of the cases. they can pile on charges to the point that even innocent people plead guilty.

Ok but I really still don't understand how other places can sell gold coins and no one cares what people do with that stuff do they? I am just anxious to know how they can prove like he said that one doing it is OK, but  '10 of us doing it' broke the law. If that is true, then most people who swap secret Santa at Christmas parties are breaking the law...geesh. 

[Ogre]

If that is true, then most people who swap secret Santa at Christmas parties are breaking the law...geesh.

I bet if you ask an IRS agent, they'd say that's about "gifts" and not "economic transactions."  Either that or they'd agree it IS breaking the law...

And I will mow lawns for lasagna...

[LordBaltimore]

It says that NORFED dollars are illegal if attempted to be used in place of gov't dollars. But don't people just agree to use then among themselves which constitutes barter? It's not like you hand them to someone who doesn't know what they are...? It would be like me offering you a clam shell in return for a mussel shell...we agreed to trade.

Here's Bernard's tutorial on how to spend LDs.  Does this sound like an open and honest bartering technique between people who have agreed to the trade to you?

3. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be circulated voluntarily as barter, accumulated and collected.

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

8. Never use a Silver Liberty alone unless the sale is greater than $10 and less than $20. If the total is greater than $20, include the Silver Libertys with FRNs.

I really really wish he'd educate his users to limit this type of exchange to small mom and pop shop businesses, where the business owner is the one making the decision to barter.  The pimple faced cashiers at larger stores don't get to keep the LDs, and their till deposits go straight to the bank, so criminal prosecutions in these cases are a certainty.

[Russell Kanning]

do some of you guys really care if what they did was against the law?

[anarchicluv]

If something is in need of defending, it takes lead.

No.

They aren't going to fear guns.  That will only make them stronger.

To defend you have to make the aggressor realizes that he is bring crap down on his own head by his own action.
If those guys wake up to a thousand e-mails, asking why they are thieves, they are going to have to ask themselves why.

It was mentioned that the courts were silly, a retort was made that should not the LD folks defend themselves? I intended to point out that the time for defense was past, since the theft had already been carried out, and that if defense was warranted, defense requires force (assuming the defender couldn't merely run away from the attacker).

No, my point was that it's perfectly reasonable for them to try and defend themselves through the courts.

[Ron Helwig]

Added a note on the NHLibertyDollar website:
http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/nov/liberty_dollar_national_office_raided

[coffeeseven]

Anyone know if the warehouse at Coeur D'alene  got hit?

[mvpel]

Yes, they took the specie and the dies.

[jaqeboy]

Money laundering, not sure how BvN would have done that...or why.

IIRC, "money laundering" was one of the excuses the goons had used to shut down and steal e-gold's business and property; the implication was that others were using e-gold's business to launder money and that that was reason enough to put that on the warrant, regardless of the rather stringent methods already used by e-gold's owner to attempt to thwart such. ... the logic of which is, of course, totally flawed.

That's the way I read the warrant, but not necessarily using the business in this case, just using the LD's - it was brief and vague enough (and I read it late last night).

The forfeiture laws authorize seizure of something that might have been used in a crime without a conviction of anyone for the crime itself. IE, seizure of a boat that might have been used for smuggling, way before ever getting a conviction of a smuggler - or see the example of the guy who was a gardener on his way to a trade show with cash in his pocket intended for purchasing equipment at the show; his cash was seized because they thought it might be intended for drug transactions - so his business is destroyed and his life is turned into a legal struggle to get his cash back.

That's the point of FEAR, the organization fighting asset forfeiture laws.

To get this warrant to seize everything, they probably only had to convince the magistrate that they felt they could prove someone used LD for money laundering and mail fraud, not that Bernard or the corporation did such. That's what we're up against. Now, the fight begins to regain the assets and it'll be a battle of attrition.

[slim]

I would just like to say lets turn this in to a positive situation. I believe all of us liberty lovers need to focus not on our differences (political vs. apolitical) but on what is in common with all of the people in the liberty movement. Take this information and use it to refresh the spark of liberty in your heart and turn that spark in to a roaring fire.

Many people have been hurt and I feel for all of the people who had their property stolen. Some people  have had their lives ruined and I hope that those people can pick up the pieces and not give up the hope that we can once again be free individuals.

[Friday]

Bald Eagle,

That's right- how's the "Forge of Freedom" sound to you?

Come by Ron's house tomorrow- that's exactly the idea I had. 

This is an opportunity.  The LD has always split freedom lovers because some loved the idea, some hated the large mark-up over spot.   We have a chance to do this right.

Imagine NH Freedom dollars, stamped rounds of silver, that we make here, with no to little mark-up over spot. 

Avenge the Liberty Dollar indeed!  In five years, when I pay for my Big Mac with silver and Euros, when the FRN dollar is worth as much as a peso, I'm going to buy Bernard a shake and we'll sit back and laugh. 

Shuvom

I probably won't make the meeting tonight, but I am very interested in participating in this venture.  I'm one of the ones who always had "issues" with the LD.  But I would love to help get our own alternative currency going in NH.  Please add me to your mailing list (if you have one) and let me know what you are looking for in terms of labor, investment, etc.

[mvpel]

Does anyone actually think that it's a coincidence that this raid was conducted about a month after the government's motion to dismiss von Nothaus' lawsuit against them was denied, and a week after the latest action in that lawsuit?

[FTL_Ian]

Anyone know if the warehouse at Coeur D'alene  got hit?

Bernard says yes; the warehouse says no.

Bernard will be on the show tonight at 7 ET.  Tune in at http://listen.freetalklive.com  I expect to ask him about the warehouse discrepancy.

[Dave Ridley]

Left this msg for   
WARREN T. BAMFORD
SPECIAL AGENT IN
CHARGE OF THE BOSTON FIELD OFFICE.
(617) 742-5533

and requested that it be transcribed verbatim:

"Is it true that the FBI stole gold from Liberty Dollar headquarters?"

( followed name, location, number)

You can do the same. 
Focus on the local branches. 

also you can reach the secret service local NH branch with complaints and questions:
626 5631

[Dave Ridley]

very positive coverage on the evansville tv station wow

that's the benefit of talking to the press when the FBI won't.