Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[Little Owl]

The points made in it are laughable on their face,

Apparently the judge didn't think so.  You'd better come up with something more substantial than that now that the issue of prosecution is moving away from "if" and towards "when".  I do hope that if it goes to trial they do so quickly.  Certainly LD deserves its day in court (or a return of all assets.)

If there is anything even close to a fair trial, the Liberty Dollar will be quickly vindicated.

On certain points, I would agree.  But I consider the terms "Inflation Proof" and "100% backed" to be misleading.  The feds seem to think LD has violated what could loosely be termed the counterfeiting act.  Not because of their appearance (though they also take issue with that), but from the simple basis of federal law prohibiting pressing coins intended as "current money".

[penguins4me]

Not because of their appearance (though they also take issue with that), but from the simple basis of federal law prohibiting pressing coins intended as "current money".

Those issues are, as I understand it, one and the same: "current money" is a synonym for "legal tender". In other words, "current money" does not equate to a currently-used alternative money system to the US dollar/FRN system. If they convince the judge that their silver LDs were not intended to imitate legal tender coins, then "both" of those issues become moot.

[Dreepa]

If there is anything even close to a fair trial, the Liberty Dollar will be quickly vindicated.

Sorry Ron.. read the first part of your sentence... prob won't happen.

[Seamas]

I remember seeing the Liberty Dollar folks at PorcFest and thinking that they were asking for a large premium, over the metal value, for their coins.  As I recall it was quite a premium not only over bullion but over American Eagles (and American Eagles are now about $16 for an ounce, so I think that $20 was indeed a bit rich).  My take on it was that if the currency actually collapsed one would be much better off with cheaper more recognizable coins than ones issued by the Liberty Dollar folks.  They seemed more like odd curios than a viable alternative currency.

There's nothing wrong with them selling rounds for above what one can buy from the U.S. mint, of course.  I think that calling them "dollars" is what the government will use against them, especially because they were calling them $20 Liberty Dollars and selling them for $20.  It's a specious argument given that I never thought that they were legal tender; nor do I know anyone who did.

What I've read on their web site about "real money is inflation proof" etc. is incorrect but nothing worse than one can see from all kinds of advertising.  I'm sure this will annoy some folks here but silver and gold are just one way of investing one's money and should be compared to things like money market funds, bonds, stocks etc. rather than stuffing money in one's mattress.  Still, even if one bought silver in 1980, one would have been better to keep the $ in one's mattress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment. 

<<The primary fraud is being perpetrated against consumers and merchants>>

By giving them $20 pieces that are now selling on ebay for sixty bucks?  some as high as 400 bucks?

I had some issues with the high markup over spot price for a while.  I usually valued them below face in transactions both ways.   but now I realize everyone who ever received a liberty dollar at face value has made a likely killer profit...or could if they wanted to sell the thing.  Apparently, even the least valuable liberty dollars are worth fifty percent over their face value.  others are worth 100 times their face value.

another excuse for the high markup is now becoming clear:
high risk for the manufacturer

a couple other areas where norfed appears to have vindicated itself:
- never falling into the typical currency/certificate pitfalls...they apparently never issued unbacked paper, their currency and metal never lost value,
- they also proved to be imaginative and nimble compared to the u.s. mint, producing all kinds of interesting/new/different things at increasingly reasonable prices, like the ron paul copper piece which would have been a steal at 90 cents even if they had never become rare.   They had to move heaven and earth to have these minted apparently.   

NORFED is probably not totally squeaky and some of the ideas on their website i disagreed with; I also find Bernard does *seem* shifty in terms of the way he presents himself.  But you have to judge them by their actions and history not some sixth sense.....  and in terms of both their action, their history, and their results....they really benefitted tens of thousands of american consumers/business owners/etc.    everyone who ever received a liberty dollar at face value got a steal and made out like a bandit

[Jacobus]

The Liberty Dollar website has posted links to news coverage of the raid:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/articles.htm

I recommend Bernard on Kudlow, which was entertaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK4aj8g2M9I

[coffeeseven]

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters,

Usually at this time of the month, it is the deadline for the Liberty Dollar News, our monthly newsletter that has chronicled the Liberty Dollar for over nine years.

Of course all that came to a screeching halt when the g-boys raided the Liberty Dollar just two weeks ago on Wednesday, November 14. 2007.

So now I am running from the government, afraid for my life and trying to figure out what the hell to do next! Right? Wrong! Nothing could be further from reality. Please read these quick bulleted (no pun) items for a quick review of the latest developments:

IMPORTANT: If you have not received your order and you paid for it with a bank card, please call your bank immediately, cancel the transaction, reversing the transaction and GET YOUR MONEY BACK. Don’t let the government steal your money!

1. First I am not running “from� the g-boys. It is just the opposite. I am running “to� the government. I see the current situation as an ideal opportunity to validate the Liberty Dollar. Otherwise they will have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am guilty and the Liberty Dollar is the scourge of the country. Luckily, my favorite FBI Agent “Andy� just called me yesterday... on my private cell phone. Well the cell phone is suppose to be “private� as most people don’t know the phone number. So I complimented Andy on his resourcefulness and he responded that he was the “FBI�. Now that impressed me and gave me a good secure feeling... because if the FBI could not find my cell phone number, we would really be hurting. In any case, Andy and I had a very “friendly� discussion for about 10-15 minutes. Seems that he wants to “talk� to me. I took that to mean that he wants to arrest me. So I asked about that and sure enough... a Grand Jury, indictment and arrest seems to be a given at this time.

Later in our discussions, when Andy was forth coming with other info, I complimented him on his “friendliness�. To that Andy told me that he (that’s the gov) would be as “friendly� as I was. Well, what is a poor boy to do, especially one in hot water with the feds... but be friendly. So trust me, I intend to be very “friendly�. Seriously, I told my favorite FBI Agent Andy (who I am sure is reading this and can reply if he is so moved...) that I took the government’s raid “very seriously.� To which Andy replied, “And well you should... because the government takes it very seriously too.�

So there you have it, my second call with my very Special Agent Andy. For the record, I spoke briefly to Andy shortly after he and his gang invaded the peaceful Liberty Dollar offices and raided it of everything. And as required, we received an inventory of the all confiscated material. Unfortunately, it was not as detailed as really required... simply stating 500 pounds of silver, without regard to year, weight, denomination or design was way too sloppy for this detailed pone arrestee-in-waiting.

Again, I am running “to� the government to absolve the Liberty Dollar as a legal, private, voluntary, barter currency as soon as possible. I want to get your property back ASAP. Please note this complete post for more important info on how you can help us get your property back.

2. Our first mission is to get your confiscated property back. Please don’t call it stolen... yet. It will only be “stolen� if we lose this case. And God help us all if the Liberty Dollar is found guilty. So please take two actions: First sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit and encourage other people to do so. We need thousands and thousands of people demanding the return of their “stolen property�. Second, we are launching a Legal Defense Fund to defend your right to use Gold and Silver any way you chose. It would be a very dangerous first step if the government started limiting the way you can use your own gold and silver. Please don’t let this happen! Please donate $10 or more to this very serious movement.

Currently we cannot accept donation via a bank card... but we can accept checks, money orders and cash. It is OK to mail your donation to the same old address: Liberty Dollar. 225 N. Stockwell Road. Evansville. Indiana. 47715. Every single dollar, FRN or Liberty Dollar is greatly appreciated.

Stay tune for more exciting ways to donate as we ramp to drive this out of control government back to reality. We can do it... and we need your help.

3. Now lets get serious. Did you read the 35 page Affidavit filed by Agent Andy to show ‘probable cause’ for the issuance of the Search Warrant? If not please go to: http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/libertyaffidavit.pdf and read it! Read it very thoroughly. And while you do... ask yourself, “Where’s the crime?� Where is the crime?!!! Usually in such an Affidavit there is all sorts of names, dates, offences, and other info. None of that is in this Affidavit! It seems that I am guilty of selling a t-shirt to Karen, our favorite kinda-undercover agent who was well known from the get-go. Where is the crime? And the idea we were “laundering money� is almost a joke... if it was not such a serious matter. Trust me, this is a serious matter and is being taken most seriously.

4. Equally serious, is your fear that some good natured, smiling, Agent Andy is going to raid your home and confiscate your Liberty Dollars. I know paranoia is rabid. And many of you have good cause to be alarmed. The government’s assault on our liberties and property has been way over the top. And many of us have lost property in the past. But this should only toughen our resolve for this case. But please don’t fear a raid on your place or home. There is no way the government has the resources to mount such an attack with $20 million Liberty Dollars in hundreds of thousand of hands all over our great country. Take precautions, diversify your holdings is prudent for everyone.

While it is not the time to relax and be happy, paranoia is no friend. Good communication is our best companion. So if you hear of some related action, please report it to me directly and stay focused so we can get all our property back.

5. Towards resolving this testy matter, we are interviewing federal criminal attorneys and hope to secure good, dedicated, successful counsel asap. As I mentioned to Agent Andy, I wouldn’t want to meet him without counsel.

6. I was encouraged when Agent Andy told me that he would call me when he knew the schedule so I could “turn myself in�. I thought that was real “friendly� and thanked Andy, as I am obviously not hiding out and prefer that this matter be handled in a gentlemanly way. I just hope the arrest does not interfere with my other commitments. I will be in Evansville on Thursday, attorneys in DC, family for the holidays and please join me for a rare performance as the keynote speaker at the Liberty Forum in Nashua NH on Friday, January 4. Please consider coming to the Liberty Forum... just mention Liberty Dollar and get 10% off. Trust me this is going to be wild... just a couple of days before the big Presidential Primary!!! Come to New Hampshire. Even Agent Andy is welcome. But lets find a convenient time for the arrest...OK?

7. Surprise!!! Speaking of commitments. I will be in Evansville this Thursday, November 29! Open to all. Pot Luck at 6:00. Meeting at 7:00 and out for a beer at 9:00. Everyone is welcome. Please join me at the Liberty Dollar office: 225 N. Stockwell Road Evansville Indiana. 47715. Plenty of free parking. Just off the Lloyd Expressway. Just ask Agent Andy he found us. But I don’t’ think he will be there on Thursday.... but then again... maybe Andy can come out and play... and he might be thereJ

8. Plus... if you did not catch my interview with Glenn Beck on CNN or with Larry Kudlow on CNBC... please visit http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm. Who would have thought that the raid would generate national news... let alone two shows on the same night and at the same time! The little Liberty Dollar just amazes me.

9. While doing the two national shows was good fun, it was not all the coverage. In fact, there are dozens of newspaper articles. The most amazing coverage came from a most amazing source, The Washington Post. Not only did the Post cover the raid, it was featured on the Front Page, plus it included a image of the Ron Paul Dollar! And if all that was not enough, the article was quite large and REALLY GOOD. It all started when Jan Salsbery, one of many fiery RCOs in California, referred Alec MacGillis, a reporter with the Washington Post to call me. As usual, Alex sounded like a very bright, very young reporter. And as I explained with a certain amount of contempt, you might write a good (truthful) article, but it will be sausage when the editors get done. But very late Friday night Alec called me and said the “editors� liked the story and was going to give it “some space.� Well who would have thought ... Front Page for the Liberty Dollar and Ron Paul?! Now who could image that he will be our next President... I for one! And hope you agree! Our country really needs Ron Paul. As the silver Ron Paul Dollar states: VOTE FOR TRUTH.

PS: To Alec’s credit, he followed up with a call on Monday, and subsequently wrote an additional outstanding article: http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1195598713.pdf

10. The local television and newspaper also provided very good coverage. It is amazing how many people are interested in the Raid on the little Liberty Dollar and the confiscation of two tons of Ron Paul Dollars. Of course your support is critical to our success. BIG Thanks for all you have done!

11. And finally have you seen the prices of the Ron Paul Gold, Silver and Coppers Dollars. One day the copper is a buck and the next day $65 or more on eBay! Silver is in the $250 to $450 range! Just crazy! And that is not even for the special numbered or hallmarked editions. Are you hip to the Hallmarked Ron Paul Silver Dollars? The Hallmark features a micro scroll with BOR denoting Ron’s respect for the Bill of Rights.

Quite simply, there is a lot to be thankful for. When we started the Liberty Dollar we did not get an instruction manual. We did not know how the Liberty Dollar was going to save the country from a monetary crisis. But we vowed not to let our great country falter without trying. We all, even Agent Andy, have a civic duty to our country. We are commanded by the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident... That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. We shall not let this country fail to live up to the ideals upon which it was founded by our Founding Fathers. Let us each vow that our country will not falter on my watch!

Now as I face eminent threat of arrest and possibly many years in prison, you have my sincere thanks for supporting the Liberty Dollar that exemplifies those very ideals. Our Founding Fathers fought and died for them, we shall do nothing less.

Remember it is only by banding together and adopting a free and independent currency that provides us with “just weights and measures� will we be able to throw off the yoke of a manipulated monetary/tax system and generate a peaceful and prosperous society.

Change the money / Change the country / Change the world. Do it now!

Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect/Editor
November 27, 2007

[John Edward Mercier]

What monetary crisis?
Treasury bonds have shown no expectation of inflation. And the Sub-prime market is less than of a handicap than the S&L crisis was... much less.

An odd point. An open treaty (NAFTA), open borders, and a equalized currency is needed to achieve the NAU. I find it odd that the such a small crisis, proceeded the need to devalue the dollar until $Can and $US equalized.

[mvpel]

I think that calling them "dollars" is what the government will use against them, especially because they were calling them $20 Liberty Dollars and selling them for $20.

[John Edward Mercier]

I'll give you five dollars for that.

[mvpel]

I remember seeing the Liberty Dollar folks at PorcFest and thinking that they were asking for a large premium, over the metal value, for their coins.  As I recall it was quite a premium not only over bullion but over American Eagles (and American Eagles are now about $16 for an ounce, so I think that $20 was indeed a bit rich).

Alder Gold, by far the best price I've ever found anywhere online, is asking $18.43 for American Silver Eagles today.  The US Mint is asking $22, and you can only compare those to the Liberty Dollar silver rounds if you ignore the difference between a PCGS MS69 and a PR70DCAM.  The American Silver Eagle proofs are $29.95 from the US Mint.

[John Edward Mercier]

I missed some of the thread.
Would producing a 'Shire' at spot + a constant marketing price work?

[dalebert]

This is about 10 mins long but if anyone has the patience to watch it, let me know what you think.

Don't buy gold:
[youtube=425,350]c3KFFFXvbXY[/youtube]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c3KFFFXvbXY

[coffeeseven]

I think Bright Anarchist should have been cleaning the bathroom the entire time he was in there. Then at the end he admits that you should own a little bit of gold. Diversify. OK.

John at Midas says hold your gold because it won't REALLY be worthwhile to cash it in until the new currency comes into play.

[John Edward Mercier]

Opinions vary. But Bright is historically correct. Those that were without debt and had wealth not tied to commodities were, and are today, the beneficiaries of an economic decline. The ownership of gold/silver in the late 70s would have seemed to be the SmartMoney, but in the early 80's those holding US Treasuries where having the last laugh.

Should have added that I wouldn't short the market, as market timing is somewhat of a art form rather than a science.

[Seamas]

Well, here's a better source: http://www.ajpm.com/htbin/silver.cgi.  For 1 oz. silver American Eagles they are selling for $15 and asking $16.  $22/oz. doesn't make any sense. 

I remember seeing the Liberty Dollar folks at PorcFest and thinking that they were asking for a large premium, over the metal value, for their coins.  As I recall it was quite a premium not only over bullion but over American Eagles (and American Eagles are now about $16 for an ounce, so I think that $20 was indeed a bit rich).

Alder Gold, by far the best price I've ever found anywhere online, is asking $18.43 for American Silver Eagles today.  The US Mint is asking $22, and you can only compare those to the Liberty Dollar silver rounds if you ignore the difference between a PCGS MS69 and a PR70DCAM.  The American Silver Eagle proofs are $29.95 from the US Mint.