Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[Ron Helwig]

From Answers.com:

fraud (frôd) pronunciation
n.
   1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

The Liberty Dollar's website asks holders of Liberty Dollars to deceive merchants who otherwise would not accept Liberties as payment at face value.  Placing the "$20" and "USA" on the coin is deliberately deceptive.  Again, markings were put on the coin with the intent to deceive, and Liberty Dollar, Inc. encourages the deception.  If I bought a Liberty from a Liberty Associate who was following the recommendations of Liberty Dollar, Inc., I'd be told I could purchase $20 US in goods.  Yet, I'd be paying significantly more than the coin's actual value.  Lots of deception going on that secures unfair gain for LAs, RCOs and Liberty Dollar, Inc.

When you pay more than the price of the flour, yeast, and water for a loaf of bread is that fraud? Is the fact that there is a price marked on it that is far higher than the cost of the ingredients a case for fraud? When the grocer doesn't explain all the costs associated with the production, distribution, and sale of a loaf of bread is that fraud? Is it fraud when one type of bread is priced higher than another type of bread?

Don't forget that Liberty Dollars are worth more than bullion rounds. The face value is what allows them to be used as a currency.

Liberty Dollars are currently worth way more than face value, as a search on EBay will attest. I sold a few copper liberties, that I got for 90 cents each, for over $10 each. Silver Liberties are going for twice face.

[Pat McCotter]

I see the LD as silver bullion only and would treat it the same as a silver round from Sunshine or Englehard mints as trusted for weight and purity. Silver rounds without a mint identifier would be trusted/accepted or not on a case-by-case basis.

[John Edward Mercier]

That seems most logical.

[Little Owl]

I also figure since Von Nothaus has been making money on these coins .... he can sue the government with his own money and mount his own defense. He is in it to make money. So I see no need to donate to his current lawyer fees.

Quite so.  I don't expect the donations to come pouring in, especially from customers who have paid for their orders but will not receive them.

When you pay more than the price of the flour, yeast, and water for a loaf of bread is that fraud?

If the bread claims to be "backed 100% by flour, yeast, and water", it just might be.  Bread is sold as a consumable, not a medium of exchange.

Liberty Dollars are currently worth way more than face value, as a search on EBay will attest.

Coal from the hold of the Titanic is worth a lot more than spot price for coal for precisely the same reason.  They're both at the center of a catastrophe and will soon no longer be available.  Holders of Liberty Dollars would do well to profit from this short-term popularity boost.  These buyers are obviously NOT buying them to be used for exchange.

[Russell Kanning]

Just remembering it caused her to smack him on the head

Russell can I pay YOU for my raffle ticket in Liberty Dollars?

I am not selling the raffle tickets.
I will be ... selling some Liberty Dollars at a gathering near you in the near future though. I can sell them for a little more than spot.

[Little Owl]

but I have seen pictures, and its obvious that they are not produced by the US Government.

Agreed.  They're not close enough to warrant a claim of counterfeiting.

[Ruger Mason]

I don't understand how you come to regard this as fraud. 

If someone wanted to pay me for something with Liberty Dollar,s it would just be a simple barter transaction.  We would be free to negotiate the value of the Liberty Dollar coins, and if we couldn't come to a meeting of the minds, I could just decline and insist on US Central Government money. 

Let me add that I have never used, owned, or even handled any Liberty Dollars, but I have seen pictures, and its obvious that they are not produced by the US Government.

Once again:  That you personally know exactly what a Liberty Dollar is and what a Liberty Dollar isn't is irrelevant.  The problem is that Liberty Dollar Inc. intends to profit from others who DO NOT understand what a Liberty Dollar is, and Liberty Dollar sows deliberate confusion to that end.  That's why the put a false face value on it (e.g., $50 face value for a $16.50 US piece of silver).  That's why the currency looks similar to (though not exactly like) a US issue coin.  That is why they urge users of the Liberty Dollar to pass it at face value without explanation as if it were a US issue coin.  Can you honestly say that any merchant would knowingly give someone $50 in goods for a piece of silver worth only $16.50?  Their entire intent is to confuse consumers and merchants so that they will accept them at face value, thereby causing somebody -- the pushers, the LA, the RCO and ultimate Liberty Dollar Inc to profit, and for the merchant to be sol.

[Dave Ridley]

I agree with Little Owl.  Others have expressed concern about Liberty Dollar's approach being one essentially of fraud.

According to the government affidavit, Liberty Dollar was preparing to restrike its $20 Liberties into $50 Liberties once the spot price of silver reached, I think it was $16.75, just as it had recently restruck its $10 into $20, thereby dramatically increasing its profits, which apparently it realizes in US dollars (shocker!).  Much of the debate among the liberty community seems to be focused on the outrage of government going against a competing currency, etc., and rightfully so but the whole fraud thing is treated like a dirty little secret.  I had a conversation with some Liberty Dollar people last week, and I walked away from it with the feeling that the Liberty Dollar advocates felt awkward addressing the whole debasement issue, of whether or not it was honest to put a face value on a 1 oz silver coin.

The irony is not lost on me.  While Liberty Dollar criticizes the Fed for printing new "fiat" dollars, they do precisely the same by restriking their coins with arbitrarily higher face values.  Why $16.75 spot price to make them $50 face values?  Its an arbitrary number, but the time seems right.  Time to rake the dough!  FRNs only, please!

FRAUDS!

If you have a problem with liberty dollar face value and think it is too high, you are welcome to sell yours to me at that price, and I will happily buy them.   

[J’raxis 270145]

I don't understand how you come to regard this as fraud. 

If someone wanted to pay me for something with Liberty Dollar,s it would just be a simple barter transaction.  We would be free to negotiate the value of the Liberty Dollar coins, and if we couldn't come to a meeting of the minds, I could just decline and insist on US Central Government money. 

Let me add that I have never used, owned, or even handled any Liberty Dollars, but I have seen pictures, and its obvious that they are not produced by the US Government.

Once again:  That you personally know exactly what a Liberty Dollar is and what a Liberty Dollar isn't is irrelevant.  The problem is that Liberty Dollar Inc. intends to profit from others who DO NOT understand what a Liberty Dollar is, and Liberty Dollar sows deliberate confusion to that end.  That's why the put a false face value on it (e.g., $50 face value for a $16.50 US piece of silver).  That's why the currency looks similar to (though not exactly like) a US issue coin.  That is why they urge users of the Liberty Dollar to pass it at face value without explanation as if it were a US issue coin.  Can you honestly say that any merchant would knowingly give someone $50 in goods for a piece of silver worth only $16.50?  Their entire intent is to confuse consumers and merchants so that they will accept them at face value, thereby causing somebody -- the pushers, the LA, the RCO and ultimate Liberty Dollar Inc to profit, and for the merchant to be sol.

Can you honestly say that any merchant would knowingly give someone $50 in goods for a piece of cotton and paper worth only 2¢? Yes, because he can turn around and pass that 2¢ piece of cotton and paper to someone else for $50. And so on. What makes you think he can't do the same with the $16.50 piece of silver?

However, what's superior about the LDs over FRNs is that, despite its fiat currency–esque face value, it's composed of real precious metals (or in the case of the warehouse receipts, backed by real precious metals), and it serves as a good way of transitioning to a purely precious metal–based currency—which is currently unworkable in practice because the spot price of silver is too uneven a number and fluctuates too rapidly.

[Dave Ridley]

<<The primary fraud is being perpetrated against consumers and merchants>>

By giving them $20 pieces that are now selling on ebay for sixty bucks?  some as high as 400 bucks?

I had some issues with the high markup over spot price for a while.  I usually valued them below face in transactions both ways.   but now I realize everyone who ever received a liberty dollar at face value has made a likely killer profit...or could if they wanted to sell the thing.  Apparently, even the least valuable liberty dollars are worth fifty percent over their face value.  others are worth 100 times their face value.

another excuse for the high markup is now becoming clear:
high risk for the manufacturer

a couple other areas where norfed appears to have vindicated itself:
- never falling into the typical currency/certificate pitfalls...they apparently never issued unbacked paper, their currency and metal never lost value,
- they also proved to be imaginative and nimble compared to the u.s. mint, producing all kinds of interesting/new/different things at increasingly reasonable prices, like the ron paul copper piece which would have been a steal at 90 cents even if they had never become rare.   They had to move heaven and earth to have these minted apparently.   

NORFED is probably not totally squeaky and some of the ideas on their website i disagreed with; I also find Bernard does *seem* shifty in terms of the way he presents himself.  But you have to judge them by their actions and history not some sixth sense.....  and in terms of both their action, their history, and their results....they really benefitted tens of thousands of american consumers/business owners/etc.    everyone who ever received a liberty dollar at face value got a steal and made out like a bandit

[Dave Ridley]

I got paid 2 liberty dollars for something that cost me $40 (russell accepted payment for me) and I didn't feel like I got a fair deal    $30 bucks worth of silver for something I shelled out $40 for.

on the other hand now you can sell the LD"s on ebay and get $100 or so

[Kat Kanning]

I got paid 2 liberty dollars for something that cost me $40 (russell accepted payment for me) and I didn't feel like I got a fair deal    $30 bucks worth of silver for something I shelled out $40 for.

You should be mad at Russell then  ....not the person who paid.

I was, kinda.

[Lloyd Danforth]

LD's are getting around 30 bucks on Ebay. RP LD's over 100.  Nothing justifies the 30 bucks and if the PR LD's are released people who are buying them at more than 100 are going to look silly.   

[Dan]

LD's are getting around 30 bucks on Ebay. RP LD's over 100.  Nothing justifies the 30 bucks and if the PR LD's are released people who are buying them at more than 100 are going to look silly.   

The only are silly if they personally value the pieces less than $100, or fail to re-sell them quickly at a profit.

Looking silly is subjective. 

[mvpel]

Is this piece of bullion:



... "valued at" the exact same as this piece of bullion:



... ?

All of the Liberty Dollars are deep-cameo proofs.

The "spot price" of silver is the per-ounce price of a 500oz ingot of silver in New York City for cash and immediate delivery.  While it is a reasonable gauge of the overall commodities market in silver, it has virtually nothing to do with the value of a finely-crafted unblemished deep-cameo proof one-ounce silver round.

When you say "$30 bucks worth of silver," Kat, you are suggesting that both of the above specimens have the same worth as an ounce chunk sliced off of this ingot: