Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[coffeeseven]

Because they're not doing anything wrong. It's not against the law or even immoral to create, own and spend them as long as both parties are in agreement.

What I mean to say was that I was actually marveling over their testicular fortitude to resume fabrication and their continuing tenacity to take orders, not the legality of doing so.  The legality is obviously not in question.  I read the affidavit, and it's crystal clear that no law was broken.  There has been no cease and desist.  BVNH has not been arrested.  I think our government was hoping Liberty Services would just shut their doors after the raid.  Honestly, I thought they would too.  Go Liberty Dollar!

Couldn't tell from your post which direction you were headed. Thanks for clarifying.

[Little Owl]

Well guys, I'm no fan of the Liberty Dollar and I think the whole thing is nuts.  But that doesn't excuse the feds confiscating the merchandise and planning to sell it (if this is the case) without some sort of trial.  If there is any truth to the idea that they're not planning charges/trial, how can we go about either getting them to file charges or return the merchandise.  If the paranoid are right on this one, it is a grave injustice.

It seems like Bernhard is not hard to find, so why don't they arrest him?

[coffeeseven]

It seems like Bernhard is not hard to find, so why don't they arrest him?

Because they're not doing anything wrong.

[Bill St. Clair]

I decided yesterday to order five $15 silver rounds for $20 apiece ($15.15 bid, $15.20 ask at yesterday's closing in New York, according to Kitco). I consider the difference a donation to Bernard, which I'm happy to give. So I put five of them in my shopping cart, registered, and got the message that PayPal is the only payment method supported. Well, my PayPal account is dry, so I had to transfer some bucks to it, which takes "3 to 5 business days". We'll see if I've changed my mind by then...

I find the reverse of the new design to be bloody fugly. Too noisy. But it's still an ounce of silver. An expensive ounce of silver, though. Fidelitrade lists Silver American Eagles, the US Mint's bullion coins, at $15.81 bid / $16.70 ask. I find them much more visually appealing. Move your mouse to the coin image on this page to see the backside, where it says "United States of America", "One Oz Fine Silver - One Dollar" The mint is charging $22 for the 2007 uncirculated coins, available on January 10, 2008. Compared to that, the Liberty Dollars are a good deal.

[Little Owl]

coffeseven, I was looking for something more substantive than that.  If they're "not doing anything wrong" it certainly didn't stop the feds from raiding the place and seizing its assets.

[Evenstar]

The way I see it (from the mostly one sided news reporting I've heard from Bernhard), the Feds didn't quite go through the correct process to try to stop him from running his business.  But to go through the correct process would likely have required more proof of wrongdoing than they were able to gather.  So, they tried asset seizure (which is unfortunately altogether too easy to do), and hoped that would be enough to break the business.  Of course, if that's the plan, it was completely unsuccessful.

Course, I could be way off, but that's the way I see it.

Edit: I'm not saying that Bernhard is intentionally biased or inaccurate, only that I haven't made any real effort to find out "the other side of the story" beyond reading (quickly) through the affidavit posted by Bernhard.

[inertia]

I decided yesterday to order five $15 silver rounds for $20 apiece ($15.15 bid, $15.20 ask at yesterday's closing in New York, according to Kitco). I consider the difference a donation to Bernard, which I'm happy to give.

I know it seem silly.  But I've done it several times, up until the raid.  Then I started finding them under face value on eBay from time to time (shh don't tell anybody).   

I've spent them several times, even here in The Socialist Wasteland of California.  To me, a Liberty Dollar is a trainer piece for merchants who have never considered taking real money.  Every time I've passed one of these beauties, I'm told to come back with more.  I don't bother to spend them unless the manager or owner is aware of it.  If the clerk pockets it, that's not really very helpful to converting a business, necessarily.

Some day, I plan to try passing a 1 oz. that is marked $10 and see if the merchants I've trained will take it as a $20.  Just one merchant at a time.  If they do, then I'll probably try passing a non-Liberty Dollar 1 oz. round in the same manner.  But the opportunities are pretty low out here in CA.  You know the story.  I have no problems with big corporations, but it really is harder to pass a piece of silver, progressing from face value to weight when the people keep pocketing them out of the register.

[coffeeseven]

coffeseven, I was looking for something more substantive than that.  If they're "not doing anything wrong" it certainly didn't stop the feds from raiding the place and seizing its assets.

Unfortunately "our" government passes more and more laws every year granting themselves lawful authority to do essentially what would land you or I a spot in prison for a long time if we did the same thing. Was what they did legal? Yes. Was it moral? Depends on how you feel about theft.

Personally I don't like our servant government holding us up at gunpoint or operating monopolies. I will continue to buy and use the currency of my choice.

[Little Owl]

coffeeseven, maybe what they did wasn't legal, or at the least it leaves legal maneuvering room to counter it.  If you're willing to assume (as so many on this board are) that the government is always evil and lawless, then there will never be any legal recourse.  But if you don't buy that, then they may have stepped outside of the law and there may be cause to respond.

To my knowledge, the government hasn't complained about other private mint medallions being used as exchange media.  Does anybody know something to the contrary?

[inertia]

If you're willing to assume (as so many on this board are) that the government is always evil and lawless, then there will never be any legal recourse.

I disagree.  The government is probably always evil and lawless, but there are sometimes legal recourse.  When they can do something legally, it is preferred only because blatant disregard of the law is something the public isn't supposed to roll over and take.  But now that terrorists are behind every Bush, all that's out the window.

You know terrorists could use Liberty Dollar without a paper trail.  Oh no.  What are we going to do?  (as if)  People are so scared and fearful, anything illegal automatically gets the color of law by the mere mention of terrorism.

We've seen the macro evils.  Communism.  Terrorism.  Altruism.  Oh well ... Who is John Galt.   

[coffeeseven]

coffeeseven, maybe what they did wasn't legal, or at the least it leaves legal maneuvering room to counter it.

That is the plan. The trouble is the FBI seems to be in rather a hurry to dispose of "the goods" via auction.

If you're willing to assume (as so many on this board are) that the government is always evil and lawless, then there will never be any legal recourse.

Not always. Caveat: The factions that operates outside of Constitutional boundries are muy evil a large percentage of the time. A quote from Mr. Thomas Paine who saw the facts clearer than I ever will: "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

But if you don't buy that, then they may have stepped outside of the law and there may be cause to respond.

They write the law. Every year I care less and less for remedies under it.

[David]

They write the law. Every year I care less and less for remedies under it.

[Bill St. Clair]

The money for my 2008 Liberty Dollar purchase made it to my PayPal account, so I went the the LibertyDollar.org web site to complete my order of 5 coins. All went well until PayPal's confirmation page came up. It said that ebay@libertydollar.org was "unable to accept funds." So no new Liberty Dollars for me. Anybody with a working PayPal account wanna sell me some? If so, email bill at billstclair dot com (or leave a PM here). My PGP key is at http://billstclair.com/pgp.html

[Ron Helwig]

The money for my 2008 Liberty Dollar purchase made it to my PayPal account, so I went the the LibertyDollar.org web site to complete my order of 5 coins. All went well until PayPal's confirmation page came up. It said that ebay@libertydollar.org was "unable to accept funds." So no new Liberty Dollars for me. Anybody with a working PayPal account wanna sell me some? If so, email bill at billstclair dot com (or leave a PM here). My PGP key is at http://billstclair.com/pgp.html

Unfortunately I sold all my Liberty Dollars at the Liberty Forum. (Even all the certificates, except the one that I need to be in the class action lawsuit)

Shuvom might have some, and Charles Hampe might as well. Mackler probably has some since he was refusing to accept FRNs at his table 

[Kat Kanning]

If you still want some in a couple weeks, I have a bunch of them.