"Spot price"

[J’raxis 270145]

As an illustrative example, two different grocery stores might sell the exact same item, but one for $1.79 and one for $2.19. Is the one you bought for $1.79 in some way of less value to you?

Yes the one that costs $1.79 is of less value to me.  The store is farther from my house, parking is more difficult there, they have "no returns" policy, and the staff is rude.

It is also of less value to the store, since they buy it from a supplier at a lower price than the other store, and they ordered too many of that item and need to make room for other items.

Or perhaps it's just a sale to get more people in the store so they look at other items. Or perhaps the store is larger and can take advantage of economies of scale. Or perhaps they're not a union shop. Or perhaps they've lowered costs by replacing their rude staff with self-checkouts.

[J’raxis 270145]

I submit, Seth, that it's not "solely" for the sake of the backing authority.

The originators of the Liberty Dollar decided to raise awareness of the fundamental problems of fiat currency and its ongoing debasement by the government by using beautifully crafted gold and silver medallions and negotiable warehouse receipt certificates in quotidian barter trade, rather than neatly-dressed and earnest squares going door to door handing out little booklets.

That the 1oz LDs were originally $10, are now $20, and may soon be $50, is certainly an excellent way of raising awareness of the debasement of the USD.

[Dreepa]

If someone doesn't like LD... don't use them.

Isn't that the beauty of the market that many people say that they love?

[Ron Helwig]

Nothing stops you from going to the 'official' currency exchange, or going to a street vendor, or going to a bank, in a given foreign country, when you need to swap one currency for another.  But the rates will be vastly different.  One place to avoid such an exchange, for example, is the airport, which is usually the worst of all possible deals.

How does this relate to silver rounds?  You can say that a $20 'face value'  is not an unreasonable markup for $14 worth of silver...
but some of us do complain about that exchange rate.  Yes, someone is making a profit, and profit is what is driving them to produce such an item for exchange, but hey, the airport currency exchange is making a profit too..., and serving a need, but that doesn't make it a good deal.

Of course you can do the same thing with Liberty Dollars. You can pay the $1,000 per year and become an RCO, thus getting the best deal. You can pay the one time fee of $250 and become an associate, thus getting an intermediate deal. You can ask your local RCO or associate for a discount on large orders and will likely get a better deal than face.

Each bit of margin is a little profit that makes it worth using this alternative to the generally accepted primary currency (FRNs). If there is no profit to be made using it, would you expect mere altruism to be sufficient to get people to use it? Remember, we're fighting Gresham's law here.

I attend most every Taproom Tuesday in part to transact business. It costs me some gas to drive there, several hours of my time as well. In order for it to be worth my time, I sell some silver, making a small profit on the transaction. IIRC, I've only once made enough from the profit to even break even on the trip.

As Jeremy noted, the Liberty Dollar is a transitional currency. The point of it is to get people (the "masses", not just the educated insiders) used to using real money. Once enough people are using silver, the transition from face to weight will need to occur. But by then, inflation will be more apparent and people will probably just naturally look at the weight/mass of the koin instead of the 'suggested retail price'.

That being said, some of us are planning on trying out marketing silver without a MSRP. Competition is good, and having both camps try their own strategy is a good thing. The market will determine if one or both can exist and work well.

[MaineShark]

That being said, some of us are planning on trying out marketing silver without a MSRP. Competition is good, and having both camps try their own strategy is a good thing. The market will determine if one or both can exist and work well.

That would be very cool.  Anything I can do to help?

Joe

[Ron Helwig]

That being said, some of us are planning on trying out marketing silver without a MSRP. Competition is good, and having both camps try their own strategy is a good thing. The market will determine if one or both can exist and work well.

That would be very cool.  Anything I can do to help?

Joe

You should have come to the meeting we had Friday. 20 of us having a very good discussion. Results of it were posted on the appropriate thread.

Check out the forum at http://nhlibertydollar.com. Once you register, you should be able to post.

[MaineShark]

You should have come to the meeting we had Friday. 20 of us having a very good discussion. Results of it were posted on the appropriate thread.

Check out the forum at http://nhlibertydollar.com. Once you register, you should be able to post.

You should have come to Murphy's

Had a pre-existing comittment to meet some people there, or we would definitely have come to your meeting.

Joe

[Little Owl]

That the 1oz LDs were originally $10, are now $20, and may soon be $50, is certainly an excellent way of raising awareness of the debasement of the USD.

It also illuistrates the debasement of the Liberty dollar, since one Liberty dollar used to buy 0.1oz Ag, whereas now it buys only 0.05oz.  I know they let people "upgrade" so it really isn't all that bad, but they should have let the value of the Liberty dollar float relative to the FRN dollar.  THAT would have made the point!  "X years ago, Liberty dollars and FRNs sold 1:1.  Today a Liberty is worth almost $2."  This was poorly handled and raises suspicion.

When someone says "Why should I pay $20 for a coin containing $16 worth of spot price metal" there is nothing in that statement suggesting that the person expects to pay zero markup over spot, as mvpel incorrectly assumes time and time again.  It simply means the markup is too great.  Perhaps not so today, but back when silver spot was $10-$12, the Liberty markup was out of line.

You can pay the $1,000 per year and become an RCO, thus getting the best deal. You can pay the one time fee of $250 and become an associate, thus getting an intermediate deal. You can ask your local RCO or associate for a discount on large orders and will likely get a better deal than face.

Right now, it doesn't look like you can do jack!

(Don't get me wrong, I am TOTALLY AGAINST what the feds did and unless there's some good reason we all don't know about, the people behind the raid need to answer for it!)

[SethCohn]

I submit, Seth, that it's not "solely" for the sake of the backing authority.

The originators of the Liberty Dollar decided to raise awareness of the fundamental problems of fiat currency and its ongoing debasement by the government by using beautifully crafted gold and silver medallions and negotiable warehouse receipt certificates in quotidian barter trade, rather than neatly-dressed and earnest squares going door to door handing out little booklets.

Judging by the fact that their warehoused inventory went from 3,000 silver ounces in 1998 to 158,000 silver ounces this year, not to mention the many thousands more in the hands of the public, not to mention the two TONS of Ron Paul Dollar pieces seized this week by the Feds, it was an effective strategy.

And exactly HOW is that NOT for the sake of the Backing Authority?  You just made my argument:
they made the value worth the ~$6 price difference to enough people.
Of course, their sales at a discount also had a LOT to do with it: they sold closer to the spot price to individuals who agreed to promote the product, and build their brandname.
Items like custom images (aka Ron Paul and Peace) are branding labels, not based on intrinsic silver value, and as much a part of the Authority as anything else.  Ebay prices are showing that to be true now.

[error]

I attend most every Taproom Tuesday in part to transact business. It costs me some gas to drive there, several hours of my time as well. In order for it to be worth my time, I sell some silver, making a small profit on the transaction. IIRC, I've only once made enough from the profit to even break even on the trip.

Taproom Tuesday wasn't entirely intended to be a market. Not that I care that you're selling anything, (though Keith might) but the point is to relax and have a good time. You should be getting some value out of having a good time there, or you're wasting your trip no matter how much silver you sell.

[Riddler]

As an illustrative example, two different grocery stores might sell the exact same item, but one for $1.79 and one for $2.19. Is the one you bought for $1.79 in some way of less value to you?

Yes the one that costs $1.79 is of less value to me.  The store is farther from my house, parking is more difficult there, they have "no returns" policy, and the staff is rude.

It is also of less value to the store, since they buy it from a supplier at a lower price than the other store, and they ordered too many of that item and need to make room for other items.

ehhhh, you read WAY too much into the scenario...who says the 1.79 store is a worse deal?...let me carry on further....the 1.79 store is a mom-n-pop....small general store, like on the waltons...they live upstairs, no employees....way low overhead...nice as pie. give you a free cup o' joe, etc.
The 2.19 store is a chainy, 7-eleven-ish, corporate-owned type, high overhead, manned by snotty 20-somethings, couldn't care less if you shopped there.....

[Little Owl]

That being said, some of us are planning on trying out marketing silver without a MSRP.

Ron, that is a MUCH more attractive model than the Liberty Dollar model.  Of course, one could use any number of existing private mint medallions for this purpose.  Do you plan to add the whole metal backed paper and electronic elements to this as well?  That would be the best of both worlds.  This pseudo dollar denominated crap on the Libertys was a really bad idea.

Anybody here used eGold?  I've heard suspicious things about it but that could simply be propaganda.

Silver seems to be a better choice since there is so much around.  The main historical use for silver has been in photography which is going the way of the dinosaur.  The only major upswing I'm aware of for silver use is for that other big government scam from Europe - RoHS.  Can't wait for those tin whiskers to start destroying things!

[Ron Helwig]

That being said, some of us are planning on trying out marketing silver without a MSRP.

Ron, that is a MUCH more attractive model than the Liberty Dollar model.

That remains to be seen. What we really could use help with is figuring out ways to make it worth our while to promote and use the plain silver (i.e. non MSRP rounds).

The MSRP/ALD model had a profit model built in, making it worth promoting. If we are to try to market and use silver without a MSRP, we will need some other incentive. Any ideas?

How do we pay for brochures and other marketing materials, including a website?
How do we justify our time going around and signing up merchants?
How do we combat Gresham's law?

These questions need to be answered!

[error]

Think of silver, at least during this transitional period, as a "foreign" currency, denominated in "Troy ounces" or whatever other unit of measure. This is, after all, much like it's currently treated in the existing markets. You can buy silver with FRNs or buy FRNs with silver. You can sell FRNs for silver or sell silver for FRNs.

[Dreepa]

I like nuggets.

Please don't shape them in rounds....

triangles?
rectangles?
blobs?

all kind of crazy ideas could be had.