Potential Supreme Court ruling on the Second Amendment

[Lloyd Danforth]

Apparently someone on the Marconi is not well-versed in the operation of the US Supreme Court.

Yes.  As it turns out the Marconi 'in the car' stated what really happened more clearly.

[error]

You have a Marconi in your automobile?!?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Doesn't everyone?

[mvpel]

Don't mind Lloyd, he's just competing for grumpy old coot of the year. 

[Pat McCotter]

Doesn't everyone?

I'll stick with my Tesla, thank you very much! I didn't fret when you took my Betamax and 8-tracks but you ain't gettin' my Tesla!!!

[Lloyd Danforth]

My Marconi came with the car in 91 and has a cassette player

[Pat K]

Don't mind Lloyd, he's just competing for grumpy old coot of the year. 

Yeah like there's any real competition.

[ThePug]

I'm optimistic. The ruling might be narrow, but there's little chance that it will be harmful. They'll still be deciding the question as to rather or not there's an individual right TKBA. If they uphold the Appeals Court ruling, that would be a huge victory. It wouldn't be like Roe v. Wade, instantly overturning laws across the country, but it would open the door to getting a lot of those laws overturned. That's normally how these things go- an initial court ruling that really only takes effect after later rulings begin building on it.

It also helps that the dissenting opinion in the Appeals Court ruling was based on some absurd and unfounded argument about how DC isn't a state.

[mvpel]

The court's re-framing of the Second Amendment from "well-regulated" to "state-regulated" is slightly worrisome, I suppose.  But I'm sure all that will be extensively covered in amicus briefs.

[armlaw]

Many/most "judicial rulings" this century have been in direct conflict with the sole source of federal authority, the US Constitution.

Then there's 10 USC 311, which is CURRENT US LAW, as of today, right now.

Pretty damned clear, no matter which angle you pick. Machine guns, RPGs, anti-aircraft missiles - all are a part of a modern fighting forces' arsenal, of which the individual has an unalienable right to keep and bear.

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
    males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
    313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
    declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
    and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
    National Guard.
      (b) The classes of the militia are -
        (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
      and the Naval Militia; and
        (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
      the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
      Naval Militia.

Please note the "United States" in the definition above. This is NOT the constitutional government you may think it is, but rather and instead the CORPORATE GOVERNMENT. What follows is 28 USC 3002(15) Definitions which clearly identifies the "United States" as a CORPORATION ! Many call this deception, semantic subterfuge, I prefer to call it what it really is, Sedition by syntax!
U.S. Code as of: 01/19/04
Section 3002. Definitions

      As used in this chapter:
        (1) "Counsel for the United States" means -
          (A) a United States attorney, an assistant United States
        attorney designated to act on behalf of the United States
        attorney, or an attorney with the United States Department of
        Justice or with a Federal agency who has litigation authority;
        and
          (B) any private attorney authorized by contract made in
        accordance with section 3718 of title 31 to conduct litigation
        for collection of debts on behalf of the United States.

        (2) "Court" means any court created by the Congress of the
      United States, excluding the United States Tax Court.
        (3) "Debt" means -
          (A) an amount that is owing to the United States on account
        of a direct loan, or loan insured or guaranteed, by the United
        States; or
          (B) an amount that is owing to the United States on account
        of a fee, duty, lease, rent, service, sale of real or personal
        property, overpayment, fine, assessment, penalty, restitution,
        damages, interest, tax, bail bond forfeiture, reimbursement,
        recovery of a cost incurred by the United States, or other
        source of indebtedness to the United States, but that is not
        owing under the terms of a contract originally entered into by
        only persons other than the United States;

      and includes any amount owing to the United States for the
      benefit of an Indian tribe or individual Indian, but excludes any
      amount to which the United States is entitled under section
      3011(a).
        (4) "Debtor" means a person who is liable for a debt or against
      whom there is a claim for a debt.
        (5) "Disposable earnings" means that part of earnings remaining
      after all deductions required by law have been withheld.
        (6) "Earnings" means compensation paid or payable for personal
      services, whether denominated as wages, salary, commission,
      bonus, or otherwise, and includes periodic payments pursuant to a
      pension or retirement program.
        (7) "Garnishee" means a person (other than the debtor) who has,
      or is reasonably thought to have, possession, custody, or control
      of any property in which the debtor has a substantial nonexempt
      interest, including any obligation due the debtor or to become
      due the debtor, and against whom a garnishment under section 3104
      or 3205 is issued by a court.
        ( "Judgment" means a judgment, order, or decree entered in
      favor of the United States in a court and arising from a civil or
      criminal proceeding regarding a debt.
        (9) "Nonexempt disposable earnings" means 25 percent of
      disposable earnings, subject to section 303 of the Consumer
      Credit Protection Act.
        (10) "Person" includes a natural person (including an
      individual Indian), a corporation, a partnership, an
      unincorporated association, a trust, or an estate, or any other
      public or private entity, including a State or local government
      or an Indian tribe.
        (11) "Prejudgment remedy" means the remedy of attachment,
      receivership, garnishment, or sequestration authorized by this
      chapter to be granted before judgment on the merits of a claim
      for a debt.
        (12) "Property" includes any present or future interest,
      whether legal or equitable, in real, personal (including choses
      in action), or mixed property, tangible or intangible, vested or
      contingent, wherever located and however held (including
      community property and property held in trust (including
      spendthrift and pension trusts)), but excludes -
          (A) property held in trust by the United States for the
        benefit of an Indian tribe or individual Indian; and
          (B) Indian lands subject to restrictions against alienation
        imposed by the United States.

        (13) "Security agreement" means an agreement that creates or
      provides for a lien.
        (14) "State" means any of the several States, the District of
      Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Commonwealth of
      the Northern Marianas, or any territory or possession of the
      United States.
        (15) "United States" means -
          (A) a Federal corporation;
          (B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity
        of the United States; or          (C) an instrumentality of the United States.

        (16) "United States marshal" means a United States marshal, a
      deputy marshal, or an official of the United States Marshals
      Service designated under section 564.

[ThePug]

The court's re-framing of the Second Amendment from "well-regulated" to "state-regulated" is slightly worrisome, I suppose.  But I'm sure all that will be extensively covered in amicus briefs.

That's not new. Militias have always been understood to be state affairs. That's why the "National Guard" (aka the Second Army Reserve) still has a vague illusion of state control. It's so they can claim to be the "militia" with regards to Constitutional law.

[mvpel]

The problem is that "well-regulated militia" and "state-regulated militia," in the sense of an 18th Century lexicon, are two wildly different things.

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

[ThePug]

The problem is that "well-regulated militia" and "state-regulated militia," in the sense of an 18th Century lexicon, are two wildly different things.

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."
1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

I absolutely agree about the meaning of "well-regulated", I was just pointing out that this is nothing new. I could be mistaken, but I think militias being state functions has to do with the "being necessary for the security of a free state" part, not the "well-regulated" part. I'm not sure if jurisprudence does or ever has had a position on whether well-regulated simply means "functional" or "state-regulated", but I agree it's not a good sign if "well-regulated" is going to be legally defined as meaning "under state control".

Still, the focus of this case is going to be on the individual RTKBA, independent of any involvement in a "militia". I don't think they're going to go into the definition of "a well-regulated militia".

[mvpel]

Indeed - in fact the phrasing of the question itself presupposes an individual right.

[mvpel]

At least, in that case, the restrictions on firearms possession by 17-21-year-olds would be overturned.  And many states have a right to arms provision in their constitution more plainly worded as an individual right than the Second Amendment.