Liberty Dollar currency

[tracysaboe]

My oppinion?

The liberty dollar is not fraudulent, they're very clear that this isn't bullions and that it's money. (although, untill a significant amount of the population starts using it, it's not.)

On the other hand, it's severely misguided. It's not going to work -- except perhaps as a form of protest.

My thoughts?

Good luck, you're going to need it.

Tracy

[FTL_Ian]

rhelwig,

   You're wasting bits.  I don't think LR6 is persuadable on this issue.  I bet if more people started using the LD, he'd come around... I've also heard NH is going to be looking at a state gold/silver backed currency.  Perhaps a little competition would make him feel better.

[FTL_Ian]

You know what?  I am  so sick of all the bull---- that keeps going out about the Liberty Dollar.  It may not be perfect, but I don't see anyone else comin up with a solid plan that even comes close to the LD.  So, put up...or shut the f--- up!!!!

I agree.  Right now there is no competition to the LD.  I think there should be, because competition makes everything better.  However, LR6 ranting about how the LD is fraud is just tiring.  It's clearly not fraud, and the FRN clearly is.

[tracysaboe]

You know what?  I am  so sick of all the bull---- that keeps going out about the Liberty Dollar.  It may not be perfect, but I don't see anyone else comin up with a solid plan that even comes close to the LD.  So, put up...or shut the f--- up!!!!

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I could be wrong. This could be a viable way to topple the federal researve. That's what competition is all about, and why libertarians will win. Because we're NOT all under the same big tent, but because there's a whole bunch of small tents that each go their own way and sometimes cooporate but sometimes disagree vehemently.

I don't believe it's viable -- simply because of how money developes into money to begin with. 

If you want to try -- that's fine with me. I'm not going to, as I think it's a waiste of time and wealth.

Tracy

[KBCraig]

The LD isn't fraud, in se. Not so long as everyone involved in the transaction knows what it is (and isn't).

But presenting it as legal tender (or silently allowing someone to think it legal tender) is fraudulent. And the harm to them (and to your reputation) comes when they find it is rejected by their bank, and they have to spend time and effort figuring out a) what it is; and b) how to reclaim its face value in traditional business accouting.

Kevin

[Ron Helwig]

rhelwig,

   You're wasting bits.  I don't think LR6 is persuadable on this issue.

I'm more interested in others who might see his messages. I believe that the Liberty Dollar will hold up in debate.

I welcome any competition to the Liberty Dollar, such as the Phoenix Dollar. http://www.phoenixdollar.net

[Caleb]

It's clearly not fraud, and the FRN clearly is.

I'll agree with you that the FRN's are fraud.  But up until last week I stuck up for the liberty dollars when they were accused of being fraudulent.

Then I saw a 1928 U.S. Dollar. 

What struck me is how unbelievably similar the two designs are.  So similar that a person could easily mistake them, if they weren't looking for the United States of America logo on the backside of the U.S. coin.

If the Liberty dollar wants to avoid being called fraudulent, they need to redesign the front of the coin.  It's too similar to a U.S. dollar design that it could confuse someone who knows about the U.S. coins but doesn't have the time to inspect it too carefully.

I'm not saying silver itself is fraudulent.  It clearly has intrinsic value ... it just seems to me that Nothaus must have designed it that way on purpose.  The guy worked for the mint for 25 years ... he knew what he was doing. 

Caleb

[Dave Ridley]

This is why I want to do an anti-fiat law civil disobedience where US dollars are rejected as currency.? This will probably anger the SS.

People will wonder why we're being thrown in jail for rejecting US dollars.? They'll probably get a confused look on their face.? Hopefully it will open their eyes to the scam that is every fiat currency on Earth!? Namely, that a fiat currency only has value because people are forced at gunpoint to give them value.

I heard that we could do this without breaking the law, i.e. that there is no way to make it an act of civil disobedience.  can you quote or reference the law we'd be breaking?

[Dave Ridley]

<<i dont know that i can bring myself to pay the shipping charge from norfed to help people collect high price silver.>>

mike, if you like, just buy them from me at the current associate rate (the same price I pay) 
Just let me know when you see me, I get them from the RCO all the time.

[Michael Fisher]

The LD isn't fraud, in se. Not so long as everyone involved in the transaction knows what it is (and isn't).

But presenting it as legal tender (or silently allowing someone to think it legal tender) is fraudulent. And the harm to them (and to your reputation) comes when they find it is rejected by their bank, and they have to spend time and effort figuring out a) what it is; and b) how to reclaim its face value in traditional business accouting.

Kevin

Exactly.  I believe that most LD associates silently allow people to think LDs are legal tender.  They know what they're doing is wrong, but the LD propaganda machine overrides their own conscience.

[FTL_Ian]

I can't speak for all Liberty Associates but when I use my Silver Liberties I always:

1. Ensure they understand that their bank will likely not accept it
2. Offer my business card, and invite them to call me to buy it back from them if they change their mind.

Any associate misrepresenting the LD as "legal tender" is indeed being fraudulent, not to mention insulting the Liberty Dollar.  Considering most people don't even know what "legal tender" is, your suggestion that we're "silently allowing people to think" they are legal tender is totally based in your disdain for the currency.  If someone asks "Is this legal tender?", which rarely happens, any associate who has read the instructions will say "No".  Anyone who says "yes", you have a right to be angry at, LR6.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Exactly.? I believe that most LD associates silently allow people to think LDs are legal tender.? They know what they're doing is wrong, but the LD propaganda machine overrides their own conscience.

you believe it!
Where is your evidence?

[JonM]

Exactly.? I believe that most LD associates silently allow people to think LDs are legal tender.? They know what they're doing is wrong, but the LD propaganda machine overrides their own conscience.

you believe it!
Where is your evidence?

In the plane site DVD

[Michael Fisher]

I can't speak for all Liberty Associates but when I use my Silver Liberties I always:

1. Ensure they understand that their bank will likely not accept it
2. Offer my business card, and invite them to call me to buy it back from them if they change their mind.

Any associate misrepresenting the LD as "legal tender" is indeed being fraudulent, not to mention insulting the Liberty Dollar.? Considering most people don't even know what "legal tender" is, your suggestion that we're "silently allowing people to think" they are legal tender is totally based in your disdain for the currency.? If someone asks "Is this legal tender?", which rarely happens, any associate who has read the instructions will say "No".? Anyone who says "yes", you have a right to be angry at, LR6.

You did not at all address the problem that most people do not know LDs are not legal tender, and most probably do not ask this question.  Therefore, if you use an LD in a transaction without verifying that they're aware it's not legal tender (even though it says "$10" on it), then you're silently allowing them to believe it's typical legal tender.

Exactly.  I believe that most LD associates silently allow people to think LDs are legal tender.  They know what they're doing is wrong, but the LD propaganda machine overrides their own conscience.

you believe it!
Where is your evidence?

Ask anyone who uses LDs if they tell everyone they're not legal tender.  Read through all of the testimonials on the LD's website.

For example:

http://www.libertydollar.org/html/successstories.asp


"I just went to three different places this morning. Each time I handed the cash register person a $10.00 Liberty (one troy ounce silver round). No questions asked, they just handed me change in those dreaded NON-federal NON-reserve NON-notes."


Well... guess what... I SPENT MY FIRST NORFED $10 PIECE!! I've been carrying it around in my pocket for a bit, waiting to spend it somewhere. Tuesdays, I head into San Marcos for school after work. I usually head to the Taco Bell before for some healthy fare. I placed my order and pulled out a $5 dollar bill and the NORFED coin... the cashier flipped out and said, to the effect, "Cool!! What is that?"

To which I replied, "A ten dollar silver piece". He thought it was the greatest thing and even wanted to trade his bucks for it, which I think he did.


"There are a few RC's that will exchange the Liberty Dollar back to FRN's on a voluntary case-by-case basis. This is not encouraged by NORFED (for obvious reasons, and NORFED will only redeem for the Gold or Silver), but for some folks it makes them feel better about the currency. And that's all we really want... and possibly tried to have me nailed for fraud/counterfeiting, what would happen then? Since the silver is REAL, and was accepted VOLUNTARILY, I don't think anyone can indict you for anything."


"So is this paper actually worth anything more than a dollar?" (words to this effect) "It's worth more than all of those dollars in your register... "


I just got back from a trip from San Francisco. I brought about $200 Silver Libertys and about $30 in Liberty Dollar singles.

I spent all of it.

I spend it at StarBucks, McDonalds, Jack in the Box, two Thai food restaurants,
a smoke shop and several coffee shops.

I simply hand them the silver $10 coin as payment. 95% of the businesses accept the currency.

I try to be as nonchalant as possible. Sometimes the merchant will ask me if I "really want to spend this". I always reply yes. Some people give it back. I don't argue with them, I just hand them FRN's. You may attempt other techniques, but this is the best one for me so far.


Then, just a little later, after picking up a few more items, I decided to ask again at the main checkout lines if they were accepting the Liberty Dollar yet. The lady had not seen it before, and asked her supervisor who was nearby. The supervisor told her "yes" and then shouted out to another clerk, "Hey, here is the new Liberty Dollar people have been asking about!", and then she held it up for all of the customers and checkouts to see.


Today, I showed $1 ALC to a teller at Bank of America. She examined both sides and said, "That's weird!" (She's clueless!) I said, "That's the way money is supposed to be!"

Later, I showed $1 ALC and a $10 silver to the waiter at Outback. He asked, "Have you got any more?" I showed him a $5 and $10. He said, "You mean I can buy these for $26 (US). "Yes."

Where upon he gave me $26 US.

I asked if he was a collector. He said, "I am now."


Recent experiences with the Liberty Dollar. When told the price, I just handed over Liberty Dollars to cover without saying a word.


Later I went to the concession stand to buy ice cream that cost three FRNs. I gave the cashier three Liberty Dollars. She looked at them questioningly as if she wanted to call the manager. I said, "They're O.K. I just bought our tickets with them."

She then accepted them and put them in the register.


I had only one or two FRNs in my pocket, but several Liberty Dollars. I didn't want to write a check, nor did I feel like asking if they would accept silver backed currency. So I just took out four Liberty Dollars and handed them to the owner. She accepted them without a word and handed me the change. I then showed her the silver and told her that they were redeemable in silver. She put them into her purse and said she was going to learn more about them.


I went to rent The Egyptian at Blockbuster video. At the checkout stand, in spite of a long line, I asked the clerk if he had seen the New American Dollar. "No, he said." I showed him the bills I had in my wallet and a Silver Liberty. He asked, "Where can I get some?" I told him that I had a few and would exchange some if he wanted to. I had four 5's, 2 one's. He completely cleaned me out of what I had. $20 in certificates and one Liberty piece. $32 FRNs.


I have done this several times and get a real thrill out of the reaction I get: I deliberately put ten dollars worth of gas in my car and when I go in to pay for it I put a ten dollar bill and a Silver Liberty on the counter with the ten dollar side of the coin up so its visible. I offer the clerk the opportunity to make a choice and only once out of probably eight times did they not take the silver. Great fun.


I finally used it!!! What a great feeling. I was eating at a local sports bar/hamburger joint. I was there with my neighbor. (So I have a witness) The bill came and I asked the waitress if they accept payment in silver. She said she did not know, so I suggested she ask the manager. She came back and said sure.
KEWL!!!!!!

[Michael Fisher]

Exactly.? I believe that most LD associates silently allow people to think LDs are legal tender.? They know what they're doing is wrong, but the LD propaganda machine overrides their own conscience.

you believe it!
Where is your evidence?

In the plane site DVD

Your sarcasm is not appreciated.