Liberty Dollar currency

[Kat Kanning]

Accept?

[FTL_Ian]

What I find most interesting about this little spat is that LR6, an alleged anarchist is relying on the concept of "legal tender" to back his arguements. "Legal tender" is a government concept created to force a fiat currency on an unsuspecting public.  Were it not for these laws, no one in their right mind would ever accept garbage like the FRN, and they would lose their perceived "value".

"Legal Tender" simply means:  "You either accept this worthless, fiat dollar as payment of debt, or we throw your ass in prison!"

Not a very powerful stance for a supposedly principled anarchist, LR6.

So, why would I want to misrepresent my currency of choice as "Legal Tender"?  Wait... I don't!   

[KBCraig]

A-ha.  So the LD is not "real money", worth its intrinsic value plus manufacturing/handling costs? But is instead worth something else, something non-"real"? Some mysterious added value akin to the FRN that all here agree is fraudulent?

Is the LD "real", or is it something else? If it's "real", it's worth the silver content plus manufacturing costs. If it's worth more than that, it's not "real money".

I think that both the Liberty Dollar and the FRN are worth what people are willing to pay and use them for.  I've bought LDs for $10 FRN and used LDs for items that cost $10 FRN.

You're exactly right, which is why the idea of instrinsic worth is meaningless. There's an artist who manages to get good meals in exchange for drawing on paper napkins. There's another artist who free-hand draws the front of FRNs so skillfully that he'd be prosecuted for counterfeiting if they weren't one-sided (or if he didn't tell exactly what they are). Both manage to trade something for what someone else thinks its worth.

In the end, that's exactly what bullion, LDs, FRNs, wampum, sticks, and barter are all worth: when the buyer and seller come to terms, the value of both the product and the medium of exchange are set for that exchange at that time.

Kevin

[KBCraig]

So, why would I want to misrepresent my currency of choice as "Legal Tender"?  Wait... I don't!   

I believe LR6 has made it clear that he prefers the more anarchist solution: unmarked bullion that doesn't pretend to be legal tender.

Why does your currency of choice use the dollar $ign, the name "dollar", or tie itself in any way to U.S. currency, if it's not posing as legal tender?

Again, I'm not questioning your honesty in the transaction. You've made it clear that you tell people what they are, and offer to buy them back for FRNs. You're the exception. (Not among the people on this forum, but all here seem to be exceptions to the "testimonials" offered on Norfed.)

Kevin

[JonM]

The reason US silver coins had ridges on the edges was some people, believe it or not, would shave little bits of silver off a lot of coins if there weren't a way to tell.  Then suddenly all the quarters would be the size of nickels.

Oh, LR, the plane site thing wasn't a dig at you.

As I've said before currency used for the barter of your services or goods for other people's services or goods isn't the same thing as an investment.  In a perfect world the value of one hours worth of your individual time would not change in relation to how many of them it took to buy a car, all other things being equal.  Since using actual metal currency that has its own intrinsic value as currency invites the possibility that people will attempt to alter it to create their own sort of inflation, an optimal form of currency would be electronic transfers of micro portions of precious metals, assuming nobody cracks the alchemy puzzle.

People used to think diamonds were valuable (they're really not, De Beers has vast stockpiles and creates an artificial shortage by having a monopoly on diamond production), but some bright boys have figured out how to grow them to the point that De Beers is trying to figure out who to kill, and how to get away with it.  One I've seen on the TV, Gemesis, grows colored diamonds, selling for below what it would cost you to buy a similar natural diamond.  Not so much De Beers market, as they tend toward clear diamonds, and have machines that can detect them.  De Beers has been running all those diamond commercials on TV to convince you to buy natural in a advance of Gemesis actually getting enough money to produce a vast quantity of gems.  Another company just south of the Free State, Apollo Diamond, makes diamonds that look perfect.  In fact, the only way to determine it's not a real diamond is that its too perfect to be found in nature.  http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html

So if you based your currency on say, redemption in diamonds, the entire thing could collapse if De Beers opened the flood gates.  Similarly if someone finds a massive source of gold (less likely) or figures out how to transmute something into gold (way less likely) your currency system would also collapse.  Still, probably a better risk than FRNs.

Ideally your labor would be tied to a means of exchange that couldn't be dug up out of the ground, but I don't think I'm smart enough to figure out how that would work efficiently.

[Michael Fisher]

Ideally your labor would be tied to a means of exchange that couldn't be dug up out of the ground, but I don't think I'm smart enough to figure out how that would work efficiently.

Yeah, like Granite Constants, a successful currency Ralph Borsodi created in New Hampshire at one point.  Their value was tied to a basket of global commodities.  People loved them, but at long as fiat laws exist, a currency worth anything will fail because we're being forced to use a currency worth nothing except the force that backs it.

If any of you think that metal is ever going to replace fiat in this country, you're living in a fantasy world!
...
But, used universally in NH or the US, not gonna happen!
...
If I were going to deal in silver, I would use pre-1964 coin silver or silver bars.
...
The couple of times I've seen small businesses, like restaurants, accept LD's from people I was with, it was made clear that it was 1 oz. of silver and worth aprox. 7$ something.  I'm sure none of these LD's made it into the register and none of these businesses are planning to purchase a new register with an extra coin slot, the LD's went into the manager's pocket.
...
It seems to me the general theme here is that you all maintain the fantasy that metal will become a universal means of exchange, you just differ on what form they will take.  Again, not gonna happen!

Exactly.  It's Gresham's Law.  Almost nobody will use silver bullion until fiat laws are eliminated.

What I find most interesting about this little spat is that LR6, an alleged anarchist is relying on the concept of "legal tender" to back his arguements. "Legal tender" is a government concept created to force a fiat currency on an unsuspecting public. Were it not for these laws, no one in their right mind would ever accept garbage like the FRN, and they would lose their perceived "value".

"Legal Tender" simply means: "You either accept this worthless, fiat dollar as payment of debt, or we throw your ass in prison!"

Not a very powerful stance for a supposedly principled anarchist, LR6.

So, why would I want to misrepresent my currency of choice as "Legal Tender"? Wait... I don't!

You can accuse me of being overly skeptical of all things, even libertarian politicians, "currencies", conspiracy theories, ideas, and methods, because I am guilty of that.  But it makes no sense, IMO, to accuse me of being unprincipled only because I am skeptical of a libertarian idea.

I rely on the truth to back my arguments whenever I can.  People deserve the truth.  If the vast majority of people expect transactions to be done in FRNs, and if you do not adequately educate them on the nature of a unique transaction, then you are not being honest with them because they will assume it's a transaction equivalent to FRNs.

If everyone expects all manicurists to be licensed, and if I'm not, then I will tell all of my customers that I'm not licensed to allow them to make a fully-informed purchasing decision.  Otherwise, I would be allowing them to believe I'm licensed because I remained silent about it.  It's technically their responsibility, but I would not feel good at the end of the day without openly telling the truth.

[Russell Kanning]

I don't tell my customers about any of the 5000 government laws I am ignoring ..... they probably are assuming some of them too

[Michael Fisher]

I don't tell my customers about any of the 5000 government laws I am ignoring ..... they probably are assuming some of them too

This is another one of my conflicts with not paying fed taxes.  I want to make sure all of my customers will know about it, but I don't think most people will agree with it, so I won't have any customers, and I will cease to be in business.     It feels like I have to choose, but the choice is unclear.

[Russell Kanning]

Do you also have to disclose to clients that you sometimes leave the toilet seat up?

I will proudly tell people how I am fighting the evil government .... and love our collection of bumper stickers they can see .... but I am not going to waste the time to disclose every difference I have with the gubment.

If it isn't going to effect them .... then who cares

Can you see Samuel Adams saying, " before we continue, I need to tell you that I have not paid any of the latest British taxes including the stamp, tea ........"

regarding LDs ....

I always say "do you take these?"
? ? ?they ask "what is that?"
"Silver"
? ? ?"cool" ..... then "yes/no"

no harm done

[Russell Kanning]

... but I don't think most people will agree with it, so I won't have any customers, and I will cease to be in business.? ??

many agree or don't care ..... they are all too afraid to not pay, but most "cheat" to some degree or another on any and all taxes

[Lloyd Danforth]

I don't tell my customers about any of the 5000 government laws I am ignoring ..... they probably are assuming some of them too

This is another one of my conflicts with not paying fed taxes.? I want to make sure all of my customers will know about it, but I don't think most people will agree with it, so I won't have any customers, and I will cease to be in business.? ?? It feels like I have to choose, but the choice is unclear.

Why do you feel obligated to tell your customers anything about what you intend to do with the funds that they have already, voluntarily, parted with?

[Michael Fisher]

Why do you feel obligated to tell your customers anything about what you intend to do with the funds that they have already, voluntarily, parted with?

I would not tell them what I'm doing with the money other than that I would not pay taxes on it.

If people would be upset and choose not to use my services with that knowledge, then that is obviously something the government would use against me to successfully hurt the public's perception of our movement.

[FTL_Ian]

Do you also have to disclose to clients that you sometimes leave the toilet seat up?

LOL!!

[Lloyd Danforth]

Why do you feel obligated to tell your customers anything about what you intend to do with the funds that they have already, voluntarily, parted with?

I would not tell them what I'm doing with the money other than that I would not pay taxes on it.

If people would be upset and choose not to use my services with that knowledge, then that is obviously something the government would use against me to successfully hurt the public's perception of our movement.

Why the Hell would you tell them about anything you do with the money?  Once they part with it, they have no interest in it!
Do you ask them where they got it?

[Lloyd Danforth]

One of the many reasons I don't do the relationship thing anymore is I don't want to train yet another woman to put the toilet seat back up!