A Dream

[Lloyd Danforth]

A black navy seal doesn't have to put black makeup on his face for night time operations while a white one does. Which means he has to cary less stuff and doesn't have to worry about forgeting or running out of the paste.

In this situation being black is more valuable than being white. The black man will always have this advantage, it is unique to his skin color.

He'll need the advantage as he will probably be picked to be 'Point Man'

[sandm000]

Not a lot of people know this, but I'm a Brazilian-American.

Brazilians have a very different philosophy on how to define race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule#The_one_drop_rule_and_Latin_America
-----------------------------------

Racism doesn't mean that you hate members of another race.  It means that you view them as not equal to you.  You can still care for them and even like them, while still being a racist.

Since primate-derived brains aren't capable of viewing "others" as people, I say that anyone who believes in race is a racist, because it's not biologically possible for them to be viewing members of another species as people.  They can still like them, but they can never view them as equally vested in personhood, if they insist that they are some other race.

Joe

Racial Discrimination is different from racism.  I think that you think that racism means that people think that everyone is inferior to them.  There are different races of people, if you just stop at skin color, maybe you are being a bigot, especially when conferring negative attributes on that group of people, based on skin color.  If on the other hand, you learn, as most humans do, by prototyping the things you see, you group like things together.   The problem with this arises when one tries to predict behavior based on the category you've put an object in.  As an example: imagine a child who has only encountered soccer balls there entire life, the first time they see a bowling ball they are going to expect it to behave in the same way.  People do, in fact do this type of generallizing and sterotyping.  It can be positive and it can be negative (ie "Asian kids are good at math, Black people are lazy") 
Races do exist, and they are social constructs based on physical attributes of a hereditary group.  Much the same way that dog breeds exist.  We can still interbreed and we can all see the outward physical differences.  Denying that any difference exists is dishonest.

[MaineShark]

Racial Discrimination is different from racism.  I think that you think that racism means that people think that everyone is inferior to them.  There are different races of people, if you just stop at skin color, maybe you are being a bigot, especially when conferring negative attributes on that group of people, based on skin color.  If on the other hand, you learn, as most humans do, by prototyping the things you see, you group like things together.   The problem with this arises when one tries to predict behavior based on the category you've put an object in.  As an example: imagine a child who has only encountered soccer balls there entire life, the first time they see a bowling ball they are going to expect it to behave in the same way.  People do, in fact do this type of generallizing and sterotyping.  It can be positive and it can be negative (ie "Asian kids are good at math, Black people are lazy") 
Races do exist, and they are social constructs based on physical attributes of a hereditary group.  Much the same way that dog breeds exist.  We can still interbreed and we can all see the outward physical differences.  Denying that any difference exists is dishonest.

Differences exist.  A redhead is different from a brunette, who is different from a blonde.  Those are categories.

The issue of racism comes into play when you start assigning physical appearance as a matter of sub-speciation.  A primate-derived brain does not view members of another species as being "people."  Just not possible.  Anyone you don't view as a person cannot be your equal.

Racism is a belief system, not an action system.  Someone can be perfectly polite towards members of another race, without considering them as equals.

For comparison, if I describe my family background, I tend to refer to countries of origin, and the culture associated with them.  Those differences certainly mean something to me, but I don't assign biological value to them.  Others do.  I'm half Russian-Jewish, which means I can curse someone out in Yiddish, and I grew up eating some interesting foods (the other half is a mix of German and British, so that adds other interesting cultural items).

To certain others, that "Jewish" tag means I'm not a person, and they are free to exterminate me and my family if they choose.  The fact that they do not happen to choose to do that at this particular time does not make me any more a person in their eyes, and does not make them any less racist.

Joe

[shyfrog]

Not a lot of people know this, but I'm a Brazilian-American.

Brazilians have a very different philosophy on how to define race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule#The_one_drop_rule_and_Latin_America

Interesting... I guess I'm black according to the one-drop rule. weird...
I've always considered myself mixed... no, frapped

[John]

... no, frapped

WHAT!  Sounds like no socialistic "Group-Think" for you?

Don't you realise how much "indentity" you are missing by not being part of all groups which are so much larger than yourself?

Oh Mr. Frog,  Would you consider giving up just a bit of yourself to be part of the big group?

Big groups can allow one not to have to think so much - - - and they know how to dance march 

[shyfrog]

Nope.... I can (thanks to my heritage, my upbringing, and my sensibilities) spot the earmarks of eventual totalitarianism long before it becomes such a thing.
It always starts out innocent enough: A label on something as complex as a carbon-based, emotionally apt, contextually influenced, and ultimately responsible life-form in order to give the labeler or labelee a point of static reference from which they can compare all others...

Unfortunately, nothing is static and change is inevitable despite occasional patterns that seem, oddly enough, static (trust me...it isn't). The big pattern, the one that can be depended upon for eons and eternity...is change.

We are not machines (race cars? hahah...I made a joke) and our capabilities extend outward, as well as inward, infinitely.

[John]

Yea, but the group might "need" you.
What would happen if all of the big groups just started falling apart?  Then we might have a bunch of Free-thinking individuals?
And then, um, um, well um - maybe we would forget how to dance I mean march.       It took centuries to get people to dance march so well.

Why question Group-Think now?  You know what I mean?  Not too many have done that before; why start questioning things now?

[Lloyd Danforth]

When I was a kid, what they call Racism today, they called Bigotry

[sandm000]

Differences exist.  A redhead is different from a brunette, who is different from a blonde.  Those are categories.

agreed.  Hair color alone does not make a different race

The issue of racism comes into play when you start assigning physical appearance as a matter of sub-speciation.

Maybe this is just a case of semantics, because Race, by definition is define a group of people by physical appearance or common heredity.

Read a bit here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29

A primate-derived brain does not view members of another species as being "people."  Just not possible.  Anyone you don't view as a person cannot be your equal.

Firstly, this is an opinion.  Many people believe that one day computer brains will be as sophisticated (if not more so) than a human brain and will therefore be people. (see Turing et al)
But, all the races are Homo sapiens sapiens (I understand that this is a tautology), the question is not currently whether we would accept dolphins as "people".  I would not debate the non-people are not my equals (sorry for the treble negative, but I'm trying to use the same logical construction you used)

Racism is a belief system, not an action system.  Someone can be perfectly polite towards members of another race, without considering them as equals.

For comparison, if I describe my family background, I tend to refer to countries of origin, and the culture associated with them.  Those differences certainly mean something to me, but I don't assign biological value to them.  Others do.  I'm half Russian-Jewish, which means I can curse someone out in Yiddish, and I grew up eating some interesting foods (the other half is a mix of German and British, so that adds other interesting cultural items).

So half Russian-Jewish, half German/British people are not a race of people?  Agreed.  However in order for you to be half Russian-Jewish, the Russian-Jewish people must consider themselves a sub-set of people from the rest of the human population.  Calling yourself half anything means you agree with the concept of races, even if you don't think that it means you are superior or inferior.

To certain others, that "Jewish" tag means I'm not a person, and they are free to exterminate me and my family if they choose.  The fact that they do not happen to choose to do that at this particular time does not make me any more a person in their eyes, and does not make them any less racist.

Joe

It means they are genocides and discriminitory bigots.

[MaineShark]

Hair color alone does not make a different race

Why not?  The "attributes" of races are defined by the racists.  They aren't even all the same.  Someone who is 1/8 black is still Black, if you ask a Klansman.

Maybe this is just a case of semantics, because Race, by definition is define a group of people by physical appearance or common heredity.

Read a bit here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29

To be poetical, the issue comes when one starts to view "race" as being Race.  To me, "Black" and "White" are no more than descriptors of physical appearance, exactly the same as "redhead" and "brunette."  Inheritable physical traits, yes, but with no further "baggage" attached.  To a racist, those traits are a matter of sub-speciation.  It may even be more subtle than physical appearances, and may not even lead to oppression... I've heard folks pontificate about how homosexuals are not the same race as heterosexuals, and that they should not be viewed as "evil" or oppressed, precisely because of that.

A primate-derived brain does not view members of another species as being "people."  Just not possible.  Anyone you don't view as a person cannot be your equal.

Firstly, this is an opinion.

Gravity is an opinion, as well.  All science is "opinion" by those standards.

So half Russian-Jewish, half German/British people are not a race of people?  Agreed.  However in order for you to be half Russian-Jewish, the Russian-Jewish people must consider themselves a sub-set of people from the rest of the human population.  Calling yourself half anything means you agree with the concept of races, even if you don't think that it means you are superior or inferior.

No, as I said, I was referring to cultural groups, not "racial" groups.

To certain others, that "Jewish" tag means I'm not a person, and they are free to exterminate me and my family if they choose.  The fact that they do not happen to choose to do that at this particular time does not make me any more a person in their eyes, and does not make them any less racist.

It means they are genocides and discriminitory bigots.

They may not even be discriminatory.  I can think of folks whom I know are extremely racist, who nevertheless do not discriminate towards other "races" in their normal interactions.  Or may even want to "help" those "inferior people."  There are many proponents of "affirmative action" who thing that non-Whites are mentally inferior, and that they need "charity" in order to survive.  To those folks, calling others inferior is not a cause to oppress them, but a cause to give them "gifts" to "help" them out.  They're still racists for their beliefs, regardless of how they apply them.

Joe

[KBCraig]

Hair color alone does not make a different race

Why not?  The "attributes" of races are defined by the racists.

Indeed. Britain's native groups were traditionally referred to as different "races". Celts, Picts, Welsh, Assenach, etc., were all called "races" (and the division was as strong as black and white in 1950 Selma).

[sandm000]

Hair color alone does not make a different race

Why not?  The "attributes" of races are defined by the racists.  They aren't even all the same.  Someone who is 1/8 black is still Black, if you ask a Klansman.

Actually a lot more than just the Klan, in the US, thinks you're black if you are 1/8 black. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
In reality the definition of a race is a fluid thing. see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29#Modern_race_debate

To be poetical, the issue comes when one starts to view "race" as being Race.  To me, "Black" and "White" are no more than descriptors of physical appearance, exactly the same as "redhead" and "brunette."  Inheritable physical traits, yes, but with no further "baggage" attached.

Again we are arguing about the definition of the word race, racist and racism.  Races do exist.  People who descriminate based on race can be called a racist, but to deny the existance of the races is absurd.  Sickle Cell anemia occurs most often in Africans, Hemophilia occurs in Europeans, and Tay-Sachs Disease in Ashkenazi Jews.  Asians and Africans are primarily Lactose intolerant as adults.  Northern Europeans have increased incidence of skin cancer due to low melanin production.  Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians lack alcohol dehydrogenase, the enzyme that breaks down alcohol, making them crazy for "fire water".
Physical attributes which seperate groups of people.  You may not call them races, perhaps you'd rather call them clades?  The point is the differences do exist, and if you can name the subset by it's characteristics or afflictions, that is in fact a seperate group.

A primate-derived brain does not view members of another species as being "people."  Just not possible.  Anyone you don't view as a person cannot be your equal.

Firstly, this is an opinion.

Gravity is an opinion, as well.  All science is "opinion" by those standards.

What? Please reference a peer reviewed journal article that claims gravity does not exist.  I'm not disputing that the mechanism is debated, but that doesn't mean that gravity is an opinion.  Also, if you are claiming that brains behave a certain way, please exhibit peer reviewed articles.

So half Russian-Jewish, half German/British people are not a race of people?  Agreed.  However in order for you to be half Russian-Jewish, the Russian-Jewish people must consider themselves a sub-set of people from the rest of the human population.  Calling yourself half anything means you agree with the concept of races, even if you don't think that it means you are superior or inferior.

No, as I said, I was referring to cultural groups, not "racial" groups.

Can you point to the difference between a cultural group and a racial group?

To certain others, that "Jewish" tag means I'm not a person, and they are free to exterminate me and my family if they choose.  The fact that they do not happen to choose to do that at this particular time does not make me any more a person in their eyes, and does not make them any less racist.

It means they are genocides and discriminitory bigots.

They may not even be discriminatory.  I can think of folks whom I know are extremely racist, who nevertheless do not discriminate towards other "races" in their normal interactions.  Or may even want to "help" those "inferior people."  There are many proponents of "affirmative action" who thing that non-Whites are mentally inferior, and that they need "charity" in order to survive.  To those folks, calling others inferior is not a cause to oppress them, but a cause to give them "gifts" to "help" them out.  They're still racists for their beliefs, regardless of how they apply them.

Joe

Please enlighten me on how they can be trying to kill you for being Jewish, while at the same time they aren't trying to be discriminatory.

[MaineShark]

This:

Actually a lot more than just the Klan, in the US, thinks you're black if you are 1/8 black. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
In reality the definition of a race is a fluid thing. see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings%29#Modern_race_debate

Invalidates this:

Again we are arguing about the definition of the word race, racist and racism.  Races do exist.  People who descriminate based on race can be called a racist, but to deny the existance of the races is absurd.  Sickle Cell anemia occurs most often in Africans, Hemophilia occurs in Europeans, and Tay-Sachs Disease in Ashkenazi Jews.  Asians and Africans are primarily Lactose intolerant as adults.  Northern Europeans have increased incidence of skin cancer due to low melanin production.  Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians lack alcohol dehydrogenase, the enzyme that breaks down alcohol, making them crazy for "fire water".
Physical attributes which seperate groups of people.  You may not call them races, perhaps you'd rather call them clades?  The point is the differences do exist, and if you can name the subset by it's characteristics or afflictions, that is in fact a seperate group.

If these groups are biologically-separate and identifiable as such, then there can be no cultural "fluidity" in the definition.

Brown-eyed people are very likely to have brown-eyed children.  Does that make "those with brown eyes" a "race"?

What? Please reference a peer reviewed journal article that claims gravity does not exist.  I'm not disputing that the mechanism is debated, but that doesn't mean that gravity is an opinion.

I take it you have no knowledge of science?  All science is theories.  Gravity is a theory.  It's a well-established one, but it is a theory, not a fact.

Also, if you are claiming that brains behave a certain way, please exhibit peer reviewed articles.

I can't give you an education in biological anthropology in a forum post.  I suppose for a very rough starting-point, you could read up on Dunbar's number.

Can you point to the difference between a cultural group and a racial group?

Cultural groups are sociological.  If I were adopted, and knew nothing about the culture of my ancestors, I would not be a member of that cultural group.

Please enlighten me on how they can be trying to kill you for being Jewish, while at the same time they aren't trying to be discriminatory.

Please go back and read my post.  I specifically said they were not trying to kill me.

Joe

[Raineyrocks]

I'm me and it's that simple for me anyway.    

[John]

I'm me and it's that simple for me anyway.    

Not that I'm a big fan of the song, but that reminds me of  "I am me, and you are you, and we are we, and we are all together . . ." 
Save yourself some time and energy and try to resist the urge to read too much into that.    it was just a silly song I thought  of . . .

Then again, it just might seem too important to resist.