Polygamists of the world, throw off your chains.

[Pat McCotter]

So, if a couple in Arkansas gets a divorce are they still considered brother and sister?

[David]

John Stossel did a report on cousins marrying. It was quite enlightening. I was particularly surprised at how often it happens and in how many states it's legal.

In a report in the Christian Science Monitor, Iraq is second to Pakistan in terms of I think it said 'first' cousin marriage.  I was shocked, because the first impression is that Afganistan would be number one, certainly not Iraq, or even Pakistan.  It made a very good point about the need to keep wealth in the family, and the safety and stability created by marriage between people that know each other well.  Both Iraq and Pakistan have/had violent and unpredictable gov'ts, and the tribalism fills an important void. 

[EJinCT]

while I'm a one woman guy, why does everyone seem to hate the mormons so much for their polygmy. . . I don't really see women being strong armed into this. . . personal choice. . . I've never met a mormon kid who was a punk or an asshole. . . maybe they're raising these kids right, until I see one that isn't. ..

Once again, appearances can be very deceiving.

There are definitely cases where woman, and even children, have been forced into such a lifestyle by those professing to be mormons.

IMO, the mormons take a lot of flak due to their self-imposed culture of secrecy. I spent a day in S.L. City once and toured the L.D.S. church grounds and there are certain buildings that cannot be entered by those who are not mormons. On top of that there is a hierarchy and set of "laws" (based on age/sex/race) of the church that is waaaaaay twisted, that many people, who have not studied religions, even know about.  Wont go into that here. I honestly don't wonder why they are so secretive.

Most of the mormons I have met would likely not even know how to be punks/assholes as they weren't given the personal freedom to choose how they wish to express themselves.

Not a judgement, just the way Ive seen it.

They have no idea that it was practiced by many other people, of all faiths and cultures, long before Joseph Smith ever got the idea.

And in the vast majority of those, it was done out of necessity and/or used as a system of power/control & wealth.

It rarely had anything to do with love from what I have learned.

[shyfrog]

And in the vast majority of those, it was done out of necessity and/or used as a system of power/control & wealth.

It rarely had anything to do with love from what I have learned.

Most marriages, monogamous or not, until recently were out of necessity.
Love....romantic love, is a fairly new concept historically speaking.
So it's not really about polygamy, but people.

[MaineShark]

And in the vast majority of those, it was done out of necessity and/or used as a system of power/control & wealth.

It rarely had anything to do with love from what I have learned.

It has to do with biology.  Humans are not biologically monogamous.  Monogamy is a system of power and control that was imposed by certain religious leaders.

We have so many laws because it guarantees that essentially everyone is a criminal in some way.  This allows the government to oppress people by simply enforcing the laws that were broken, rather than relying on secret abduction squads.  They can silence dissidents in the broad daylight with the TV cameras going.

Monogamy was created by certain religious leaders because they knew it was an abnormal condition compared to human nature (regardless of understanding genetics - simple observation demonstrated it).  It is rarely practiced, particularly in the way that is "correct" according to those leaders - ie, no sex before marriage, no even thinking sexual thoughts about others after marriage, etc.  Since so few will "follow the rules," they have all these folks out there that believe they will be spiritually punished if they do not seek redemption from those religious leaders.

Power and control.

Not that particular folks can't choose monogamy without being part of that, but monogamy as a system is an un-natural imposition designed for oppression.  Which is why the law picked it up.

Joe

[Raineyrocks]

And in the vast majority of those, it was done out of necessity and/or used as a system of power/control & wealth.

It rarely had anything to do with love from what I have learned.

It has to do with biology.  Humans are not biologically monogamous.  Monogamy is a system of power and control that was imposed by certain religious leaders.

We have so many laws because it guarantees that essentially everyone is a criminal in some way.  This allows the government to oppress people by simply enforcing the laws that were broken, rather than relying on secret abduction squads.  They can silence dissidents in the broad daylight with the TV cameras going.

Monogamy was created by certain religious leaders because they knew it was an abnormal condition compared to human nature (regardless of understanding genetics - simple observation demonstrated it).  It is rarely practiced, particularly in the way that is "correct" according to those leaders - ie, no sex before marriage, no even thinking sexual thoughts about others after marriage, etc.  Since so few will "follow the rules," they have all these folks out there that believe they will be spiritually punished if they do not seek redemption from those religious leaders.

Power and control.

Not that particular folks can't choose monogamy without being part of that, but monogamy as a system is an un-natural imposition designed for oppression.  Which is why the law picked it up.

Joe

  I love the way you condensed that Joe!  Almost anything people do or even think is a sin that comes with a punishment that religions impose.  It is a great manipulative control tool. 

My personal beliefs are that I do believe there is a creator so yes I choose to call this creator God but as far as religions and their guilt, rules, and crap I don't get involved with that.  I like looking around at the beauty and feel like I'm having a "moment" with the creator of this beauty otherwise if I were involved in any religion it would take the beauty out and replace it with fear.

I sometimes get scared that the bible might be for "real" and I'm in trouble for not following it but I believe that's because of childhood conditioning and the bible is so confusing.  The Old Testament is one of the most violent books I've ever read, people chose what scrolls were put in whatever bible they want etc.  The New Testament, parts of it are cool, like do unto others as you would have done unto you, that's a good one I think but there is still "fear control" throughout that half of the bible too, it's just more subtle.

[MaineShark]

Humans are not biologically monogamous.  Monogamy is a system of power and control that was imposed by certain religious leaders....
monogamy as a system is an un-natural imposition designed for oppression

tell that to those who look down on you (us) for being who we are.....

Heh.  Part of the biological proof of this is the size of certain organs, which would not be necessary if males did not need to compete with each other for the ability to father children with individual women.  Gorillas, for example, have groups where one male has several females, and no other male competition for breeding.  Therefore, gorillas have proportionately smaller reproductive gear than humans, who are evolved to compete.  Other monkeys have even less pair-bonding than humans, and have even larger (proportionately to body size) equipment.

Pointing that out (at least to males who are complaining about polyamory) tends to shut them up.

Joe

[dalebert]

I saw a biologist speak at a seminar and she was saying how reproduction is actually very demanding in terms of the metabolism devoted to it and such. The fact that the body devotes so much energy toward it shows how important it is in the grand scheme of things. Animals that have larger organs, particularly testes, in proportion to body weight tend to be very promiscuous. Dolphins are an example. They're testes are the size and shape of cucumbers, though you wouldn't know it because they're internal. Man, wouldn't that be a drag in the water otherwise! Dolphins wouldn't be able to swim so fast.  Dolphins are randy as all get out and have an extremely short refractory period (time lapse between acts of sex). Animals that don't need to compete sexually, like the gorillas you described, are essentially getting a competitive advantage in not having to waste so much body mass and metabolism toward that particular function.

[J’raxis 270145]

Monogamy was created by certain religious leaders because they knew it was an abnormal condition compared to human nature (regardless of understanding genetics - simple observation demonstrated it).  It is rarely practiced, particularly in the way that is "correct" according to those leaders - ie, no sex before marriage, no even thinking sexual thoughts about others after marriage, etc.  Since so few will "follow the rules," they have all these folks out there that believe they will be spiritually punished if they do not seek redemption from those religious leaders.

Power and control.

Not that particular folks can't choose monogamy without being part of that, but monogamy as a system is an un-natural imposition designed for oppression.  Which is why the law picked it up.

This is all true, but the religious values that promote self-denial (not just sexual taboos, but also dietary restrictions, denial of creature comforts, &c.) serve another purpose: Such denial creates a great deal of psychological frustration, which can be channeled by the religious leaders into useful directions, such as fighting wars, building temples, and so on.

[J’raxis 270145]

Humans are not biologically monogamous.  Monogamy is a system of power and control that was imposed by certain religious leaders....
monogamy as a system is an un-natural imposition designed for oppression

tell that to those who look down on you (us) for being who we are.....

People who've wrapped themselves in their own psychological chains tend to react quite violently against those who haven't. Subconscious envy of something they can't have, manifested as enmity against those who do have it. Witness all the frothing anger in the comments in the UL and YouTube every time someone like Russell or Lauren Canario does something. They practically scream, "How dare they not submit to the system—when I have!?"

[J’raxis 270145]

I saw a biologist speak at a seminar and she was saying how reproduction is actually very demanding in terms of the metabolism devoted to it and such. The fact that the body devotes so much energy toward it shows how important it is in the grand scheme of things. Animals that have larger organs, particularly testes, in proportion to body weight tend to be very promiscuous. Dolphins are an example. They're testes are the size and shape of cucumbers, though you wouldn't know it because they're internal. Man, wouldn't that be a drag in the water otherwise! Dolphins wouldn't be able to swim so fast.  Dolphins are randy as all get out and have an extremely short refractory period (time lapse between acts of sex). Animals that don't need to compete sexually, like the gorillas you described, are essentially getting a competitive advantage in not having to waste so much body mass and metabolism toward that particular function.

Someone post a link to the DolphinSex shock site over on the FTL BBS again, Dale?

[EJinCT]

And in the vast majority of those, it was done out of necessity and/or used as a system of power/control & wealth.

It rarely had anything to do with love from what I have learned.

It has to do with biology.  Humans are not biologically monogamous.  Monogamy is a system of power and control that was imposed by certain religious leaders.

Monogamy was created by certain religious leaders because they knew it was an abnormal condition compared to human nature (regardless of understanding genetics - simple observation demonstrated it). 

IMO, I don't think it is even possible to say exactly when, or why monogamy was first practiced.

I also believe in evolution; that is, humankind has the ability to rise above such base characteristics and tendencies.

If we are speaking biologically, apply this train of thought to "natural" dietary habits.

Is "man":
a) omnivorous?
b) vegetarian?
c) vegan?
d) carnivorous?
e) any/all of the above?


IMO, Each of us is unique; so any answer is the correct one.

To make any sweeping generalization is plain silly and small-minded IMO.

I do what is right for me. As long as another's beliefs do not impose themselves on mine or do harm, I could care less what is right for them.

Thanks for trying to tell me what MY "true" nature is. That's just as bad as those who preach that monogamy is the "right" way...


IMO, truth, like reality is wholly dependent on the perspective of the viewer. YOMV.

[MaineShark]

If we are speaking biologically, apply this train of thought to "natural" dietary habits.

Is "man":
a) omnivorous?
b) vegetarian?
c) vegan?
d) carnivorous?
e) any/all of the above?


IMO, Each of us is unique; so any answer is the correct one.

Not biologically.  Biologically, "a" is the correct answer.

To make any sweeping generalization is plain silly and small-minded IMO.

I do what is right for me. As long as another's beliefs do not impose themselves on mine or do harm, I could care less what is right for them.

Thanks for trying to tell me what MY "true" nature is. That's just as bad as those who preach that monogamy is the "right" way...

Biology is biology.  From a purely biological standpoint, monogamy is "wrong," in that it reduces the ability to pass on your genetic material.  So is celibacy, or homosexuality.  From a purely biological standpoint.

Doesn't mean you aren't free to prefer monogamous relationships, for psychological reasons.  Or that you are somehow doing wrong in any moral sense by preferring monogamous relationships.

Joe

[dalebert]

Every sperm is sacred.

[youtube=425,350]U0kJHQpvgB8[/youtube]

[shyfrog]

Thought I'd throw something into my own thread here...

http://4thefamily.us/swedish