Has Stefan Molyneux hooked you?

[Lex]

He's very repetitive. A lot of his videos could be boiled down to maybe 2 minutes. And I think he does come off as a jerk. If he truely has ground breaking ideas I haven't heard them and I'm sure someone with better communication skills will elaborate on them and make them more available. Some of the issues about Stefan discussed on the liberatingminds forum are pretty damaging, I'm not sure Stefan can ignore them for very long.

Stefan reminds me of the libertarian party. It too was great once but then lost its way.

[David]

Interesting video.  Watch to youtube video then go to the liberating mind link afterwards, where rather than discuss the contents of the video they talk about his laughing.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eacoZopXYY

http://liberatingminds.forumotion.com/freedomainradio-f26/stef-s-latest-video-infiltrating-the-mafia-t380.htm

btw, Russell you will like the video.   

[dalebert]

Great cartoon, Dale   Damn, you're talented!

I see you're taking Pat's advice. 

[Mike Barskey]

I didn't mean to turn Lauren's thread into an FDR-LiMi bitchfight, so I'm going to drop that bit of it for now.

Good idea. It was not my intent either. I just wanted people interested in Stef to know there was a place that discussed the same issues beyond the potential contradictions that Stef won't address. I'm done here, too.

[David]

I didn't mean to turn Lauren's thread into an FDR-LiMi bitchfight, so I'm going to drop that bit of it for now.

Good idea. It was not my intent either. I just wanted people interested in Stef to know there was a place that discussed the same issues beyond the potential contradictions that Stef won't address. I'm done here, too.

Not my intent either.  Those who don't like him, are simply pointing out that in the end he is an imperfect human being, just like the rest of us.  Except Lloyd, he's perfect.     But the rest of us aren't.  I would like to put some of his theories to the test in the near future, and if I miss big details that he or I overlooked in our zeal to have a somewhat stateless society, then it will be our own fault when problems occur.   

[Lex]

Why is there so much negativity towards Ron Paul among liberty loving folks?

I think of all the people that Ron Paul has woken up and turned to liberty and it just boggles the mind that so many pro-liberty folks resent him for that. Are you just upset at the idea that a politician is able to get people to think about less government?

I'm not saying to support Ron Paul but to actively discredit him? All the work he has done in engaging new people, encouraging people to get invovled in the liberty movement, getting people to THINK about what the role of government should be, he has written many excellent articles for Lew Rockwell and Ludwig von Mises (both of which are supposadely the intelectual havens of anti-government, anti-system and pro-free market, pro-liberty folks) he has said what many people don't want to hear about our government and the war.

Ron Paul is the only candidate that has promised to bring our troops home. If he does absolutely nothing else except bring our troops home he would be saving the lives of hundreds of thousand of people that our military would have killed in the next 4 or 8 years. And no amount of civil disobedience in NH is going to end the war in Iraq. Only Ron Paul can do that in the near future, if elected.

In fact, I have yet to meet a single Ron Paul supporter who believes that Ron Paul will achieve all of our goals of Freedom (Ron Paul himself has admited multiple times on camera that it is impossible for him to achieve all of his goals). And yet that is the whole argument in Stefs video - which leads me to believe that Stef has no idea what he's talking about and his whole show is purely for entertainment purposes and to make a quick buck (that show is his bread and better and he will do and say just about anything to cause controversy and get more people to listen to him and hopefuly buy his book or donate). His Hispanic group argument is completely irrelevent. Trying to get a group to hate itself is a lot different than Ron Paul trying to get people to love and respect themselves instead of asking for government handouts.

To be even more conservative, lets say that Ron Paul gets elected and gets hundreds of thousands more people on board with liberty over the next year, but then once elected Ron Paul turns into a Hillary or McRomney or what have you. The net gain from us supporting him is still positive because we would have had a bad guy in power anyways yet with Ron Pauls campaign we were able to reach a lot more awareness and even get a few more people to move to NH and work for liberty here. Ron Paul himself has said multiple times that his campaign is bigger than him. He understands that as president he wouldn't be able to do much but he's seeing the positive affects his campaign is having on people.

Those of you actively pursuing to discredit the Ron Paul revolution are being destructive to freedom in my opinion.

Whenever anything pro-liberty happens in NH we are always hoping that some MSM or national media outlet picks up the story and gets more people to read about it and hopefuly join the freedom movement here in NH. Many of you who are against Ron Paul seem to applaud when a national news outlet writes a positive article, yet Ron Paul is a perpetual pro-liberty marketing machine. Ron Paul doesn't matter, it's about the message.

I would hope that the least the Ron Paul antagonists could do is just use your energy on attack the other candidates or the system or going out and doing civil disobedience but to sit there and spend time coming up with ways to hurt the Ron Paul movement is just mind boggling to me.

People don't like when Jason Sorens or Seth bash the civil dis. folks and yet you're doing the same thing to the politicos. I thought you guys where better than that.

Dale, I loved your other cartoons and you have definitely put a lot of effort into the Ron Paul one but I have to ask: What do you hope to achieve for liberty as a result of this cartoon? Or was it purely negative and spiteful?

[David]

Speaking for myself I do not at all hate Ron Paul.  I am one that is happy when he gets good news.  But I agree with alot of what Stef had to say about him.  The gov't exists for the benifit of others.  The only time they pretend otherwise is during election years.  That is why not much gets done during election years. 
but I have lost faith that any politician, Dr. Paul or someone else will ever be given the power to strongly effect the milk teat of subsidies, regulations that hurt competition and favor existing business', social security, or the industrial military complex.  And that is if he went all the way and became Prez.  The Gov't does not represent you and I. 
I support Free trade.  It is clear to me the gov't does not represent you and I when I consider NAFTA, CAFTA, or any other 'free trade' agreement. 
That is why I spend time looking for solutions out side the system.  It is personally clear to me that it would be more productive.  I want to do something meaningful for liberty, to achieve it in my lifetime.  I see the poison and the parasitism in politics, and the long history of the freedom movement unable to do much more than slow it down. 
It is not a personal attack, against you or the Ron Paul movement.  It is just the way I view a harsh reality.
Power has never been our friend.  It has never been our ally in gov't or outside of gov't.  I am no longer comfortable waiting for a politician to come and save me.  Dr. Paul might very well be a great man worthy of my support.  But I do not trust the system that exists for the same reason the mouth on a leach does.  I can only control myself.  I have no control over the system.  I believe my personal efforts will be more effective with things I can control.

I consider many, many of the political porcs to be my friends.  I was saddened when Dawn, and Chathaleeninnh, and Rochelle, and others left the forum.  Do not take my dislike of politics personal.  Please point out when I have been disrespectful, and I promise to remedy it to my best ability. 

[Lex]

I am no longer comfortable waiting for a politician to come and save me.  Dr. Paul might very well be a great man worthy of my support.

I don't think anyone has claimed that Ron Paul will 'save us'. The whole point of liberty is that we have to take it back ourselves.

We have to work towards personal freedom no matter who the president is or what type of anarchist society we have. There will always be someone trying to gain power and influence people. That's not as much a product of society as simple human nature I think, some people are simply born leaders. They are naturaly able to lead and for whatever reason other people naturally follow them. It's a fact of life, animals have the same types of roles within their groups. So, you should never, ever, stop working for personal freedom just because your leader happens to share some of your beliefs, since they cannot possibly ever share all of your beliefs (unless you're a sheeple in which case you don't have any beliefs that aren't also shared by your superior...).

Ron Paul is not a subsitute to everything the outside-the-system and inside-the-system folks are doing. He's merely one part of a decentralized push towards liberty. You may chose to support him or not is up to you and perfectly reasonable. The thing that bothers me is when people actively attack him.

The first video I ever saw of Stefan was his diatribe about why we shouldn't support Ron Paul. To quote him, he said that Ron Paul was a "disaster" for the freedom movement. My only response to that would be that Stefan is the real "disaster" to the freedom movement. He is only interested in monolog.

[dalebert]

Dale, I loved your other cartoons and you have definitely put a lot of effort into the Ron Paul one but I have to ask: What do you hope to achieve for liberty as a result of this cartoon? Or was it purely negative and spiteful?

My impression from this statement is that you haven't read the associated blog entry. Click here. Also, I really wish if you want to comment on the cartoon that you use my site to do so. Why? Because others may be having the same misconceptions about what I'm trying to say as you and most of the people who see it won't see your comments here. The cartoon, while it may be imperfect, can be a tool for stimulating further dialog.

[MengerFan]

I think of all the people that Ron Paul has woken up and turned to liberty and it just boggles the mind that so many pro-liberty folks resent him for that. Are you just upset at the idea that a politician is able to get people to think about less government?

Has he turned people to liberty or has he just turned them to the delusion that they can actually change the nature government?

...getting people to THINK about what the role of government should be...

Ahhh, I guess that answers that question. The reason that people who care about liberty cannot support Ron Paul is that there is no place for government in liberty. Furthermore, it is not the state itself that is our enemy, but the moral philosophy that props it up. Attempting to change the nature of the state before attacking the moral philosophy driving it is putting the cart before the horse, is doomed to failure, and will only delay the real change that must occur for us to be free.

[dalebert]

Lex, just to be clear, I'm not trying to dodge your questions. I'd actually really like it asked on my site so I can respond for others to see because I'm sure you're not the only one to misinterpret my message. I actually expected statements like that.

[David]

 Menger stated it well, that gov't has no place in liberty, and that an illusion of change will only delay the needed change.  If Dr. Paul manages to do everything that he promises to try to do, in effect if he is more successful than even he hopes to be, in the end he is one man.  After his presidency, the whole rotten system will still be there, to be used by its real patrons once again. 

[Lex]

Menger stated it well, that gov't has no place in liberty, and that an illusion of change will only delay the needed change.  If Dr. Paul manages to do everything that he promises to try to do, in effect if he is more successful than even he hopes to be, in the end he is one man.  After his presidency, the whole rotten system will still be there, to be used by its real patrons once again. 

What do you think he has promised to do?

[Raineyrocks]

This Stef guy is being referenced here more and more.  He uses logic charm and humor to persuade people into free-market-anarcho-capitalism.  He emphasizes psychological healing, discourages political activities, and is the metaphor-making-machine.

Whoa!  I don't even know who he is and I wish I understood at least 1/4 of the words you used so I opt out of this poll.

[Lex]

Ahhh, I guess that answers that question. The reason that people who care about liberty cannot support Ron Paul is that there is no place for government in liberty. Furthermore, it is not the state itself that is our enemy, but the moral philosophy that props it up. Attempting to change the nature of the state before attacking the moral philosophy driving it is putting the cart before the horse, is doomed to failure, and will only delay the real change that must occur for us to be free.

I think you're shooting arguments in the dark hoping to hit something.

All Ron Paul talks about in almost every interview is about how people need to take things into their own hands. That the only way we will be able to reduce the size of government is if people stop asking for handouts.

Ron Paul is an admitted Ludwig von Mises scholar (he has even admitted it more than once in MSM interviews). He even stated more than once in MSM interviews that many of his supporters are Anarchists.

To say that Ron Paul is thinking that he can somehow make government better is not only absurd it's a lie. Ron Paul has never made such a promist, NEVER. All you hear him say is how government is evil! He doesn't say that if we just elect him it would be better!

Anyways, if you can find at least one string of evidence to the accusations you have made I would be very interested in seeing them, otherwise I think you're just making stuff up.