Question about snow on roofs

[KBCraig]

Gravity draining of water piping is a risky business.
There exist, many times, trapped areas w/in the plumbing system, which is why we ALWAYS use compressed air to evacuate the water distribution piping, to prevent split-pipe syndrome.
Faucet dripping in manuf. housing does not cause ice buildup in piping beneath the unit. urban myth.
an extended horiz. drain COULD ice up, but this is a rarity

This is why I want a credible source. The words "urban myth," especially spoken by someone on an Internet forum, do not constitute a credible source.

An open faucet never increases the risk of freezing. The water comes from a source that is below freezing (else it would be frozen before entering your house). If the pipes beneath your house are below freezing, opening the tap provides a continuous supply of >32F water, which is obviously warmer than the <32F pipes.

The only way flowing water could increase the risk of frozen pipes, is if air is being sucked into the line at some point.

[MaineShark]

This is why I want a credible source. The words "urban myth," especially spoken by someone on an Internet forum, do not constitute a credible source.

He's correct.  Water needs to be removed from the piping, if freezing is to be completely prevented.  Except in the very rare case where a house was designed with pitch to the water pipes for draining, that means using compressed air to blow out the domestic piping.

Drain piping won't be an issue, except for the traps.  Those can be protected by the addition of propylene glycol antifreeze.  If you use the pure stuff, and pour it into a full trap, the mixture will end up being just about right for protection.  If you use the pre-diluted stuff, you need to vacuum or plunge the trap to remove the water.

An open faucet never increases the risk of freezing. The water comes from a source that is below freezing (else it would be frozen before entering your house). If the pipes beneath your house are below freezing, opening the tap provides a continuous supply of >32F water, which is obviously warmer than the <32F pipes.

The only way flowing water could increase the risk of frozen pipes, is if air is being sucked into the line at some point.

The statement refers to the drainage pipes below mobile homes, since they are typically uninsulated, and the introduction of a steady flow of water is supposedly a risk for freezing.

I've never seen one freeze where there wasn't a blockage keeping standing water in the pipe.  Slice the pipe, and a big tube of ice embedded with "material" slides out.  Very pleasant...

Traps can freeze, because there is standing water there.  So can toilets.

Joe

[Riddler]

Gravity draining of water piping is a risky business.
There exist, many times, trapped areas w/in the plumbing system, which is why we ALWAYS use compressed air to evacuate the water distribution piping, to prevent split-pipe syndrome.
Faucet dripping in manuf. housing does not cause ice buildup in piping beneath the unit. urban myth.
an extended horiz. drain COULD ice up, but this is a rarity

This is why I want a credible source. The words "urban myth," especially spoken by someone on an Internet forum, do not constitute a credible source.

Well, If being a licensed Master Plumber since 1987 (in the trade for 24+ yrs) isn't 'credible', I'll take my ball & go home

[MaineShark]

Well, If being a licensed Master Plumber since 1987 (in the trade for 24+ yrs) isn't 'credible', I'll take my ball & go home

The "24+ yrs" part would lend credibility.  Holding a government license would not.

Joe

[Riddler]

Well, If being a licensed Master Plumber since 1987 (in the trade for 24+ yrs) isn't 'credible', I'll take my ball & go home

The "24+ yrs" part would lend credibility.  Holding a government license would not.

Joe

The license proves that I've passed a Journeymens test and a Master's test. It's all about knowledge, ability & experience. It's one of those pesky laws, but they take it pretty seriously. And it is a huge pain-in-the-ass to have to go to a yearly seminar & pay $200 to renew this lic. And a license for well pumps....and soon, a license for gas piping.

[Riddler]

I have seen, in a rare situation, the main building drain/sewer freeze solid. The people were away for the winter & had a running toilet. The bacteria in the septic tank had died from inactivity/chemicals, or some such. This bacterial activity creates heat, which normally will keep drains from icing up. That's why private sewer piping can be only 2' below grade, and not freeze.

[MaineShark]

The license proves that I've passed a Journeymens test and a Master's test. It's all about knowledge, ability & experience. It's one of those pesky laws, but they take it pretty seriously. And it is a huge pain-in-the-ass to have to go to a yearly seminar & pay $200 to renew this lic. And a license for well pumps....and soon, a license for gas piping.

I'm aware of what's involved in getting and keeping a license.  I held them in Maine when I was working over there.  I elected not to do plumbing here in NH as a result.  It's just a big racket for the State.

And I'm sure we could both list stories of licensees who passed all those tests and couldn't manage to solder two pipes together without having a problem.  As I said, the years of experience mean something; the license does not.

Joe

[Riddler]

The license proves that I've passed a Journeymens test and a Master's test. It's all about knowledge, ability & experience. It's one of those pesky laws, but they take it pretty seriously. And it is a huge pain-in-the-ass to have to go to a yearly seminar & pay $200 to renew this lic. And a license for well pumps....and soon, a license for gas piping.

I'm aware of what's involved in getting and keeping a license.  I held them in Maine when I was working over there.  I elected not to do plumbing here in NH as a result.  It's just a big racket for the State.

And I'm sure we could both list stories of licensees who passed all those tests and couldn't manage to solder two pipes together without having a problem.  As I said, the years of experience mean something; the license does not.

Joe

This is quite true. The apprentice classes have shrunk (from lack of interest; everyone wants their kid to go to college) to the point where they've reall dumbed-down the requirements. Now, it's open-book testing= Bulshit,; they have 'refresher' seminars, in which the instructor basically tells the class what's on the test; they allow a passing grade of 70.....
So, we'll have a generation of mediocre-at-best plumbers........swell

[srqrebel]

Here's an idea: Why don't you guys with plumbing experience organize a private, plumbers' organization that holds prospective members to a higher standard than the government does?  As the public becomes aware that plumbers who are certified by your organization are superior, it will become the gold standard in the plumbing industry, and the government's incompetence would be exposed for all to see (not just insiders like yourselves)

Of course, in order to remain effective, the organization would have to stay 100% private -- no government involvement whatsoever.

[MaineShark]

Here's an idea: Why don't you guys with plumbing experience organize a private, plumbers' organization that holds prospective members to a higher standard than the government does?  As the public becomes aware that plumbers who are certified by your organization are superior, it will become the gold standard in the plumbing industry, and the government's incompetence would be exposed for all to see (not just insiders like yourselves)

Of course, in order to remain effective, the organization would have to stay 100% private -- no government involvement whatsoever.

The difficulty is that the government is already deeply involved with the plumbing trade.  Most members would have to be government-licensed, anyway.

They are not, however, much involved with wood- or oil-heating, and I've been toying with the idea of creating a organization for heating and cooling professionals that would serve such a purpose.  Give folks a forum to discuss issues, and to voluntarily set standards for their own industry.  Create a testing and certification program which would give folks who attain certain levels "bragging rights" in the competition for customers, without actually creating the protection-racket that licensing is.

Joe

[srqrebel]

They are not, however, much involved with wood- or oil-heating, and I've been toying with the idea of creating a organization for heating and cooling professionals that would serve such a purpose.  Give folks a forum to discuss issues, and to voluntarily set standards for their own industry.  Create a testing and certification program which would give folks who attain certain levels "bragging rights" in the competition for customers, without actually creating the protection-racket that licensing is.

Joe

That would be perfect, Joe!  If funding is a problem, this would definitely be a project I would contribute start-up funds to, (from my limited budget)
The only stipulation would be, that it never partners with or caves in to the government in any way (even when faced with the threat of forced shut down).

Government incessantly expands its tentacles into new areas.  We need to beat them to these things with the private sector, effectively locking them out.

[Riddler]

Here's an idea: Why don't you guys with plumbing experience organize a private, plumbers' organization that holds prospective members to a higher standard than the government does?  As the public becomes aware that plumbers who are certified by your organization are superior, it will become the gold standard in the plumbing industry, and the government's incompetence would be exposed for all to see (not just insiders like yourselves)

Of course, in order to remain effective, the organization would have to stay 100% private -- no government involvement whatsoever.

There are many such organizations nationwide 'PHCC' plumbing/heating/cooling contractors (NHPHCC, in N.H., for instance) I don't belong to any.
I've found, in my years,that word-of-mouth is the best means of building a business. I got rid of the 4500.00-a-year yellow pages ad; there are 17 PAGES of plumbers; quite a few have full page ads. I can't imagine the cost. So word-of-mouth. It'll either make, or break you.
No matter, as Joe says, you still have to have the govt. license.
Most of you here don't believe in govt. licenses, but would you want an unlicensed doctor operating on your brain?
True, the best doctor can kill you through negligence, but we all sleep a little more soundly knowing that the doctors we have,passed certain tests/exams to get licensed; the same can be said for tradesmen. Do you want an unlicensed hack working on your biggest investment?

[srqrebel]

Most of you here don't believe in govt. licenses, but would you want an unlicensed doctor operating on your brain?
True, the best doctor can kill you through negligence, but we all sleep a little more soundly knowing that the doctors we have,passed certain tests/exams to get licensed; the same can be said for tradesmen. Do you want an unlicensed hack working on your biggest investment?

Absolutely, under one condition:

If the doctor holds current certification with a private organization known for holding its members to impeccable standards -- one that does not use government force to turn healthcare into a scam, like the AMA does.

I would trust such a doctor way more than one who proudly displays a government monopoly scam-license.

[Riddler]

Most of you here don't believe in govt. licenses, but would you want an unlicensed doctor operating on your brain?
True, the best doctor can kill you through negligence, but we all sleep a little more soundly knowing that the doctors we have,passed certain tests/exams to get licensed; the same can be said for tradesmen. Do you want an unlicensed hack working on your biggest investment?

Absolutely, under one condition:

If the doctor holds current certification with a private organization known for holding its members to impeccable standards -- one that does not use government force to turn healthcare into a scam, like the AMA does.

I would trust such a doctor way more than one who proudly displays a government monopoly scam-license.

Yes, but we're not in the 'what-if' game. All we've got is the AMA in the here-and-now, so don't you still want this guy to have the govt. license....or a surgeon operating out of his basement?

[MaineShark]

That would be perfect, Joe!  If funding is a problem, this would definitely be a project I would contribute start-up funds to, (from my limited budget)
The only stipulation would be, that it never partners with or caves in to the government in any way (even when faced with the threat of forced shut down).

Government incessantly expands its tentacles into new areas.  We need to beat them to these things with the private sector, effectively locking them out.

Hopefully, it would be funded by donations from members.

As far as the "never partners with or caves in to the government" thing, that's why I've been toying with the idea, rather than already having brought it to an effective reality.  I'm trying to think of ways to actually constitute it such that the membership cannot vote it into an unholy alliance.

Most of you here don't believe in govt. licenses, but would you want an unlicensed doctor operating on your brain?
True, the best doctor can kill you through negligence, but we all sleep a little more soundly knowing that the doctors we have,passed certain tests/exams to get licensed; the same can be said for tradesmen.

I'd definitely take the unlicensed doctor.  If he can manage to run a business by word-of-mouth, without some mob running a protection racket for him, he must actually be good.

Do you want an unlicensed hack working on your biggest investment?

If I'm going to get a hack, I'd rather an unlicensed one; they're cheaper.

I'd rather have someone skilled and unlicensed.

Joe