Force on Force Firearms Training

[RangerProbst]

Hello All,

I am thinking about putting together a realistic force-on-force training program. I'd like to see who would be interested in this sort of thing if I put it together.

The main benefits of my training would be:

1. Get a serious reality check.

This is huge. In a nutshell, everyone needs to understand what it is like to have serious force used against you. This experience will save your life if it ever happens for real.


2. Pain/distraction inoculation.

If the real thing ever happened, you need to be trained to continue fighting and shooting back regardless of pain or other distracting factors. You also need to be able to quickly distinguish between a new developing threat and a distraction.


3. Increase situational awareness and tactical knowledge.

At times during the program, you'd be dealing with multiple assailants coming at you from many different angles. I plan on putting students in serious, painful, adrenaline pumping, varied, worst case scenarios to help prepare then for real-world worst case scenarios. The training will take place in a variety of locations with different conditions. You'll be ambushed, assaulted at close range, robbed, assassinated, threatened, stabbed, berated, car jacked, etc. You get the point. Training will be conducted during both day and evening hours.


The class is going to be designed with the intermediate shooter in mind. I prefer students that are quite familiar with the basics of carrying, drawing, and shooting a firearm. All the training would be done using force-on-force training equipment, most likely Airsoft (it's either that or Simunitions and Airsoft looks like the way to go with all things considered).

Let's hear it people, yay or nay?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Nothing there for me.   Its a little know fact that a gun in  a holster is a paperweight.  The only way to go thru life, even partly protected, is in groups of three,  all directions  being observed, all guns out, loaded with safetys off.

[Tom Sawyer]

You'll be ambushed, assaulted at close range, robbed, assassinated, threatened, stabbed, berated, car jacked, etc.

Sounds like my home life.  Kidding aside I would guess there would be some folks interested.

Nothing there for me.   Its a little know fact that a gun in  a holster is a paperweight.  The only way to go thru life, even partly protected, is in groups of three,  all directions  being observed, all guns out, loaded with safetys off.

Here is a photo I found of Lloyd from back in the day. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

And, I travel around that way today, except now, the pins are half pulled out, to save time.

[Tom Sawyer]

And, I travel around that way today, except now, the pins are half pulled out, to save time.

Candy ass... I carry one with the pin out and holding down the spoon as my M.A.D.*  policy.

*(Mutually Assured Destruction)

[Lloyd Danforth]

"Here, hold this"

[Tom Sawyer]

Damn the wisdom of Lloyd beats me every time.

[Bald Eagle]

Very interested.
Where would the session(s) take place, over what time period, and - how much will it cost?
Will there be any weapon-retention techniques taught?  Knife fighting / Tueller Drills?

Although I've shot a number of IDPA courses and have a fair amount of shooting experience, I'd agree that Airsoft would probably be best for the large majority of people who will be interested.  Simunitions would be a little heavy-duty.

[Puke]

This interests me.
I didn't get enough close combat training in the Army.

[Recumbent ReCycler]

That sounds like fun.  I remember seeing Korean men shooting each other with airsoft machine guns in Seoul.  It looked like they were having a blast, using cover to their advantage etc.  I have an airsoft machine gun, but it needs a new battery.  It looks like and the controls are identical to an M16 variant.  I would like to eventually get one of those semiauto airsoft pistols when the prices go down enough for me.

[RangerProbst]

Its a little know fact that a gun in  a holster is a paperweight.

Wow, the thought never occured to me that having a firearm on you when you need one would be absolutely useless. I can see how it might be somewhat useless or a liability if you aren't properly trained, but I don't have that problem.

[RangerProbst]

Very interested.
Where would the session(s) take place, over what time period, and - how much will it cost?
Will there be any weapon-retention techniques taught?  Knife fighting / Tueller Drills?

Although I've shot a number of IDPA courses and have a fair amount of shooting experience, I'd agree that Airsoft would probably be best for the large majority of people who will be interested.  Simunitions would be a little heavy-duty.

Location, that depends. It would also change depending on the scenario. One of the benefits to using Airsoft is that the training could be performed almost anywhere.

The course would most likely be one or two full days on the weekend. Initially, it would probably be one full day that goes pretty late in the evening.

I'm shooting for $200-$300 dollars per day. There would be a reduced cost for those that bring their own Airsoft guns. I would recommend this since you could use an Airsoft gun that is practically exactly like the one you carry/own.

Weapon retention training may be included, I haven't decided on curriculum yet. You would experience realistic situations in which Tueller  drill training would help you survive but I hadn't planned on including it. You will be stabbed with a training knife. I could include REALISTIC knife defense.

One of the things I am strongly considering is integrating the principles of Tabimina Balintawak into shooting discipline. This would be huge and it will greatly improve everyones shooting and survivability.

Simmunitions is just not realistic. The rounds cost 3x what regular ammunition runs. The equipment required to get started is much more expensive. In addition, after training with the company, they make you sign an agreement where you promise not to train civilians. I'm not sure I want to do business with a company like that.

By cranking up the FPS on Airsoft guns and making sure people don't wear too much clothing, there will definitely be a pain inoculation element to the training because they will hurt.

Airsoft pros
1. Can train anywhere.
2. Pellets are like $.003 each, a little more for the marking/biodegradable versions.
3. Equipment is much more affordable.
4. The newer Airsoft guns resemble the real weapons very well.
5. Slide blowback closely simulates real recoil.
6. There is much less likelyhood of real injury. Insurance would be more affordable too.
7. You don't really have to worry about cleaning up or damaging property in the training area.
8. Equipment is very easy to maintain.

Airsoft cons
1. The sound is not realistic.


Simmunition pros
1. Sound is more realistic even though they aren't quite as loud as a 22 LR.
2. Better that Airsoft at longer ranges. This is really a not issue since most of the shooting in these scenarios would be done from handgun/point blank ranges.
3. They can hurt A LOT. This could be a con for some people but hey, this shit needs to be as realistic as possible.

Simmunition cons
1. They are SUPER expensive. I'd have to charge a grip for the course just because of the ammunition and equipment costs.
2. Training has to be limited to areas that are prepared for simmunition training. They make a mess and can damage property.
3. There is a lot of clean up required since the weapons have to be cleaned like real ones.
4. I don't want to do business with them because I don't agree to limiting the benefit of their equipment to military and LE.


I think it's pretty clear which option is the superior.

[RangerProbst]

This interests me.
I didn't get enough close combat training in the Army.

You would be able to "get physical" to a degree. You would be grabbed, stabbed, shot from point blank, etc., and you would be required to defend yourself. The training would be a little rough and I wouldn't suggest it to those squishy toy types who wouldn't want to get a little physical.

[MaineShark]

That sounds like fun.  I remember seeing Korean men shooting each other with airsoft machine guns in Seoul.  It looked like they were having a blast, using cover to their advantage etc.

Isn't just about anything "cover" when we're talking about airsoft?

Joe

[RangerProbst]

That sounds like fun.  I remember seeing Korean men shooting each other with airsoft machine guns in Seoul.  It looked like they were having a blast, using cover to their advantage etc.

Isn't just about anything "cover" when we're talking about airsoft?

Joe

True. The best way to train for combat is to be in it of course. Since that isn't really an option for those of us that want to go home and hug the kids, Airsoft is the next best bet.

Besides, 90% of all shootings occur within 10 feet or less. I can't image that there would be any cover in most of those situations so Airsoft still has real training value.