Shire Silver Design Contest!

[cigarlover]

Heres a couple photos of some coins I have, just generic rounds.

[cigarlover]

Last photo

[J’raxis 270145]

Just a reminder...

The whole reason we need this Shire Silver project in the first place is that the Founding Fathers "named" the currency. By calling it a "dollar", they (probably unintentionally) got people to stop thinking in terms of ounces of silver and start thinking of "dollars" as something in and of itself. That allowed the definition of the currency to be changed, thus debasing the currency.

In other words, I am vehemently opposed to calling them anything other than "{measurement} of {element}" or "{element} {measurement}s".

Exactly. This is also a reason, I think, to move away from Troy ounces, because it's already an obscure, archaic unit that's not used for anything else.

So we should use grams right? Not the other type of Ounce, because the avoirdupois system is just as archaic, right? Besides 30 grams is a bit more than a avoirdupois oz and a bit less than a troy oz, plus it's a multiple of ten, which for some reason seems to be easier to use than 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc etc. when subdividing the unit for mathematical purposes.

I would prefer grams. The Avoirdupois ounce isn't archaic; it's in current, wide use now as a "standard" weight in the U.S., but it'd just cause confusion with people thinking it was the Troy ounce.

[cigarlover]

The current system in place for gold is 1 oz 1/2 oz 1/4 oz 1/10oz and 1/20 oz. Currently i can take the spot price of gold and figure out the value of each size pretty fast and in my head. Since the spot price is dont in oz it makes sence to keep the denominations that way. If you price these in grams then you need to take the spot price and divide by 31.1034768 and then multiply by the number of grams. Just my opinion of course.
If people are going to accept payment in metal instead of or in addition to frn's then that system is already in place really. At apmex.com you can buy gold in oz's or grams and the bars come with assay cards to gaurentee purity. Silver can also be had in any denomination from 1oz to 1000 oz bars. I havent seen any silver priced in grams so that would be a new thing.

I like the idea and in all honesty I was going to do something similar. I decided not to because I just dont see why people would want to buy from me versus the sources that are already available. Many times i can already buy silver below spot and gold right around spot at bulliondirect as well.

[sandm000]

Don't like math?
Check gold price in grams here http://goldprice.org/gold-price-per-gram.html

[cigarlover]

I dont mind the math I just think its going to be confusing. Most people associate 1 oz having 28 grams in it. If i go to pay someone with a 1 oz gold coin that is a troy oz they will all need to be aware that it contains 31+ grm and not 28. If you are also making a coin that is 28 grams then your dealing with 2 different metal standards. The confusion will cost some people money and because of that they will be hesitant to use the system. Again, its just my opinion and is meaningless in the scheme of things if I am the only person using a different system. If this is a localised system just for people here then its probably fine. If you want it to take off nationwide I would see complications with it. IMO the world standard is already set up. why deviate from that?

[Ron Helwig]

If you are also making a coin that is 28 grams
...
IMO the world standard is already set up. why deviate from that?

Why would anyone make a 28 gram piece? I was figuring on a 10 gram piece. That should come out to about $10, currently.

Yes, the world standard is grams/metric. Anything we can do to get the U.S. away from the royal system is a good thing! 

[sandm000]

I don't necessarily agree with Ron on moving away from the Imperial system.  As Fahrenheit makes way too much sense (Temps in the last 12 months have been between 0 and 100 degrees) It's like a percentage scale, where celsius is we would have seen -18 to 40 degrees celsius.  I don't know when to put on a T shirt,  30 will always sound cold to me.  Plus Everyone has a foot and it's a good estimate of a foot (with the shoe on)  Also from the center of the chest to the tip of the outstretched middle finger is about a yard (or a meter, I'll concede this point)  Hand held foods are closer to a pound than to a Kilogram.

I think that the Imperial system is more human than the Metric system.  However the Metric system does lend itself more readily to mathematical adjustment.  Which is why the money should be in grams.
A ten g, twenty g (or 25 if you prefer) & 50g piece would probably be fine for every day use, however so many people are used to a 1 oz piece I've been suggesting the use of a 30 g piece as it's slightly smaller than a Troy ounce, but slightly larger than an avordupois oz.  And if you weigh a coin before accepting it (with a scale built into your register for just that purpose) You won't have to worry about accepting one oz for the other, or mistaking a 30g coin for a troy oz coin.

[cigarlover]

Maybe I just get confused easily 10gr for 10$ obviously we are discussing silver. Vrs 1oz for about 15.50 today. 10 gr is aprox 1/3 of an oz or about 5.15 aprox worth of silver. If I am the owner of a restaurant and I have a choice, and the bill is 20.00 then I could take 20 frn or aprox 40 grm of silver? Is that the idea?
I do like the idea I just tend to put it into practical use and try it out in my mind first I guess. As you mentioned in the other thread you would want to set the price once a week on a Sunday or whatever day you choose. How would that work out i the real world though?
Silver is very volatile and in the long run I do see it going higher but that may not always be the case.
If we took last week as an example, silver was on a 2 week run and would be worth more over the last couple of weeks. If it turns around this week and moves down considerably then that could be a big hit for a business. So if you are setting the price on Sunday are you the market maker so to speak and will gaurentee that price for the week? You then hedge your bets based on a certain volume and take short positions on the comex?  As a potential business owner that would be my main concern. If I do 10k a week in silver transactions and silver loses 5-10% for the week I would like to know I am safe for the week and could cash those in at the price that was set last sunday. This would be especially true in the summer months when silver traditionally doesnt do so well.
Maybe all of this was covered already, I will need to go back through the threads and see. Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand the whole concept.

[dalebert]

The dollar is really volatile as well. You're calling silver volatile because it's dollar value fluctuates but you must realize that's based on poor assumptions. What businesses should be asking is why they aren't adjusting the dollar price of their goods every day.

[cigarlover]

I agree but thats the system we live in and until I can pay my rent or mortgage in silver or gold, its the system we are stuck with. Also even a metal system will have a floating value. Always did. Even when silver was currency in the 1800.s there was inflation from having to many in circulation. There's a reason why only congress had the power to coin money, and that was to prevent anyone from going out in their backyard(Assuming they had gold or silver in their backyard) and just dig up some silver and start coining and flooding the market with silver or gold.
What your suggesting here is that people do exactly that. I for one would be very leary about taking money from anyone who is coining it themselves in their garage. Nothing personal of course but when someone walks into my store with their own money how am I to know that what they are handing me is gaurenteed .999fine without doing an assay with a refiner? I would have a lot more confidence accpeting sunshine or prospector rounds than I would over taking whatever generics someone is making in their garage. Which of course begs the question, why this system over just using what is already in place?

If I go in to make a major purchase with 100 ozs or more who is going to take the time to weigh each one or test each one or scrutinize each one. If everyone is stmping their own money it leaves a lot of room for dishonest people to make up some funny money and slip it in here and there. This is the reason you do need one central location similar to the LD. Thats also why currently people pay a premium for englegard rounds or actual coins from the US or other countries mints. Its the gaurentee that they are real and authentic.

[sandm000]

http://www.david-laserscanner.com/

This guy developed a 3D laser scanner for $200 (I'm sure there are cheaper versions out there). In seconds you would have the volume of the coin in question. Couple with a counter scale and bam instant ID of the coin.  Actually, you could probably use the Scanner Scale http://cgi.ebay.com/Refurbished-Fujitsu-9900-Scanner-Scale_W0QQitemZ260033233362QQcmdZViewItem you have that scans barcodes and weighs produces do the job for you. Instant coin valuation.

Also why would you take a large number of little coins to pay for a car?  Wouldn't you get a small number of larger gold coins? So you would only need 20 coins at most.  I guess you could pay in 10g silver pieces, but it would be like paying for dinner in pennies, somebody might reject the money on the basis that they don't want to count it.

[John Edward Mercier]

The dollar is really volatile as well. You're calling silver volatile because it's dollar value fluctuates but you must realize that's based on poor assumptions. What businesses should be asking is why they aren't adjusting the dollar price of their goods every day.

We do. But its according to re-stocking and margin. Such that fast selling items will low margins tend to fluctuate more. Gasoline is an easy example.

[Ron Helwig]

We had a great Shire Silver meeting last night. I'm hoping Bill posts the notes at http://shiresilver.org soon.

[Kat Kanning]

So no Shire Silver Contest in the Feb. newspaper?