Back hand slap from the NRA

[J’raxis 270145]

Look at that, J'raxis is questioning the efficacy of working within the system.  Doesn't it seem plausible that big organizations become big because they play ball with those in power?  If someone was truly poised to take their power away, wouldn't government push them out of the system?

I was? I was questioning these two particular organizations' methods, not the general efficacy of working within the system—and there are other groups that are more effective, or at least who go about opposition in the right manner.

[Jim Johnson]

Look at that, J'raxis is questioning the efficacy of working within the system.  Doesn't it seem plausible that big organizations become big because they play ball with those in power?  If someone was truly poised to take their power away, wouldn't government push them out of the system?

I was? I was questioning these two particular organizations' methods, not the general efficacy of working within the system—and there are other groups that are more effective, or at least who go about opposition in the right manner.

Which ones?

[PowerPenguin]

Who here is a member of GOA or JPFO? These orgs don't have the clout that the NRA does, but they have a more principled record than the NRA as well...

[John Edward Mercier]

There are a lot of ways the NRA could have gone with it's law suit.  But all the NRA could mustier was to ask for a "good-faith effort".   
"Obviously, we don't expect the city to find everybody."  Why not?  Shouldn't the Police have been recording the address' of every place they stole weapons from. 

In all fairness, the person who made that statement represents the Second Amendment Foundation, not the NRA.

Why didn't the NRA bring the law suit to the level of a Civil Rights Violation?  Because if your right to bear arms actually becomes a right the NRA will loose it's control over gun laws.  The NRA fights to maintain it's position as the end all and be all of gun law and will never fight for the right of all people to keep and bear arms.

Members of the NRA saw the theft of weapons in New Orleans as wrong but the NRA's leadership knows that the NRA is a political organization and that it has obligations to the Government.

Couldn't agree with you more!

Unfortunately, this is how the State-based anti-civilization works.  Organizations that purportedly exist to protect your interests, actually wield the power of the government to protect their own interests at your expense.  Why wouldn't they?  After all, it is only natural for any entity to act in its own best interest.  As long as government power exists for them to access, one cannot reasonably expect anything but corruption from large businesses and organizations.

Social structures that operate out of sync with the nature of the organism are inevitably doomed to failure.  The only way we can have order and integrity in the social system, is to have a system that operates in harmony with self-interest, which is a key part of human nature.  A Stateless, 100% business-based free market is the the only such system I know of.

...but alas, I preach to the choir

We had this at one time. Large groups of people opposed the outcome of it, and unions embedded into law restrictions. Then large corporations unable to compete embedded into law further restrictions, and so on down the line.
Sort of like building our own cage.

[yonder]

Who here is a member of GOA or JPFO? These orgs don't have the clout that the NRA does, but they have a more principled record than the NRA as well...

Me, on both counts.

I haven't given a penny to the NRA for over 10 years.  Or, more specifically, since they rolled over in 1994 and let the "Assault Weapons Ban" come to pass without much of a fight.

[srqrebel]

Look at that, J'raxis is questioning the efficacy of working within the system.  Doesn't it seem plausible that big organizations become big because they play ball with those in power?  If someone was truly poised to take their power away, wouldn't government push them out of the system?

It does certainly appear that way at first glance, but if you read it carefully, J'raxis was actually saying that these organizations should play offense rather than defense.  That is still working within the system.

In the current anti-civilization, businesses and organizations stand no chance of becoming big unless they play ball with the government, or resort to organized crime.  In fact, this is the very reason I lost my own entrepreneurial dream of building a spectacular business empire of my own, at least until the scourge of government has been overcome -- I can't stomach bullies, let alone partner with them.

In a genuine free market (100% government-free) environment, businesses and organizations could only grow big by creating actual values that people would voluntarily purchase -- and do so better than the competition.

[srqrebel]

We had this at one time. Large groups of people opposed the outcome of it, and unions embedded into law restrictions. Then large corporations unable to compete embedded into law further restrictions, and so on down the line.
Sort of like building our own cage.

Could you elaborate?  When and how did we have such a system?  What exactly was the outcome that you refer to?

[J’raxis 270145]

Who here is a member of GOA or JPFO? These orgs don't have the clout that the NRA does, but they have a more principled record than the NRA as well...

I'm a member of the NRA, GOA, PGNH, and GONH. And since I brought up the ACLU earlier, I'm also a member of the ACLU, and the IJ.

I support the NRA and the ACLU because even though their legislative and litigative strategies are seriously lacking (again, a react-and-compromise strategy instead of something more proactive), they still do good work on other fronts.

[TackleTheWorld]

Wow, you must be deluged with newsletters.
Perhaps you could show me a stunning victory of one of those organizations.  You know, something exciting and inspirational.  Something that either drew blood from the government, or energized swarms of people enough to cause a disruption of tyranny.

[MaineShark]

Wow, you must be deluged with newsletters.
Perhaps you could show me a stunning victory of one of those organizations.  You know, something exciting and inspirational.  Something that either drew blood from the government, or energized swarms of people enough to cause a disruption of tyranny.

I dunno about "stunning," but the NRA has, occasionally, won important victories.  Like forcing the nutcase police chief in Portland, Maine to actually issue CCW's, which he had been refusing to do.  Not a stunning victory, but at least a victory of some sort against a nut with an axe to grind.

JPFO can't claim political victories, not being a political organization.  But their educational materials on the nature of gun control and how governments have always used it as a means of oppression are very good.  Watch "Innocents Betrayed" if you want to be sickened.

"The Mitzvah" is the story of a Jewish boy who survived the Holocaust because his parents gave him to their Catholic neighbors.  He grows up to become a Catholic priest in Chicago, parroting the usual anti-gun nonsense that is heard in Chicago.  Then he learns of his ancestry and the role that "gun control" played in the Holocaust, and is forced to do some deep soul-searching about who he is and what he wants to do with his life.  It's fairly inspirational.

JPFO is definitely in the "disruption of tyranny" camp.

Joe

[yonder]

Perhaps you could show me a stunning victory of one of those organizations.  You know, something exciting and inspirational.  Something that either drew blood from the government, or energized swarms of people enough to cause a disruption of tyranny.

GOA put up a web page and hosted videos which drew broad attention to the gun confiscations that were going on in New Orleans in the weeks following Hurricane Katrina.  The NRA wanted no part of this, and only much later did they come in to claim victory.

http://www.gunowners.org/notb.htm

[yonder]

I dunno about "stunning," but the NRA has, occasionally, won important victories.  Like forcing the nutcase police chief in Portland, Maine to actually issue CCW's, which he had been refusing to do.  Not a stunning victory, but at least a victory of some sort against a nut with an axe to grind.

It might not be stunning to you, but if I lived in Portland, I'd be pretty impressed.

JPFO can't claim political victories, not being a political organization.  But their educational materials on the nature of gun control and how governments have always used it as a means of oppression are very good.  Watch "Innocents Betrayed" if you want to be sickened.

JPFO has been at the leading edge of inspiring BATFE reform.  I think the BATFE would be even more tyrannical that it already is if the JPFO weren't getting word out about them.

[MaineShark]

It might not be stunning to you, but if I lived in Portland, I'd be pretty impressed.

I'd be "pretty impressed" if they would actually oppose the permit nonsense as completely and utterly illegal and a violation of human rights.

Getting the process streamlined is a small victory.

JPFO has been at the leading edge of inspiring BATFE reform.  I think the BATFE would be even more tyrannical that it already is if the JPFO weren't getting word out about them.

Indeed.  But remember, those aren't political victories, because of JPFO's tax status   They simply provided educational materials

Joe

[J’raxis 270145]

Wow, you must be deluged with newsletters.
Perhaps you could show me a stunning victory of one of those organizations.  You know, something exciting and inspirational.  Something that either drew blood from the government, or energized swarms of people enough to cause a disruption of tyranny.

By that definition of victory I can't, but that's simply because you've set the bar far too high. By that definition of victory, I don't even think one could consider the civdis engaged in by people such as the Kannings or yourself as "victories." In each case I remember us having a small number of supporters and swarms of people calling us crazy or stupid.

My definition of victory is anything that stops or rolls back tyranny, or anything that educates the public about the tyranny inherent in the system, or anything that disrupts the system's ability to engage in tyranny, however small any of these actions may be. This would include legislative victories that repeal particularly unctuous laws or place new limits on them, litigative victories that either place new limits on the government or at the very least grant relief to the people* involved in the litigation who were victimized by the government, and acts of civil disobedience that serve to educate the public or disrupt the system.

* This seems to be a kind of victory that people far too often ignore—and this is especially surprising considering that most libertarians and anarchists are so keen on individualism, personal sovereignty, and the like. Even if no precedent is set, no laws are changed or struck down, a court case where the ACLU steps in and wins the case for the litigant is still a victory. Right now, the NRA is trying to locate all the people who had their guns confiscated in the wake of Hurricane Katrina get them back. Even if the planned lawsuit doesn't place any new limits on the government, if they're able to recover the guns that were stolen and return them to their owners, this is still a victory.

[J’raxis 270146]

Damn aren't I smart.