HVAC Repair Men (venting and eventually a question)

[yonder]

What a $#!@ scam.

I know what part I need.  I know how to install it.  I just can't get the damn part because I'm not a licensed HVAC repairman.  Note this is for my own Trane XL1200 heat pump.  And I'm not allowed to work on it myself.  Amazing!

Repairman comes out, sees the HP is 15 years old, and sees dollar signs.  Before he even takes the cover off of the outside unit to look at the ice on the coils, he's talking about how we ought to just get a newer unit instead of nickle & diming this old one along.

Then he starts talking about all this other crap and services he wants to sell us, dropping numbers like "$3000" (for an optional accessory for the heat pump mind you), $800 for "cleaning out the ducts", etc.  And he never did leave a quote for how much he is going to charge for the 5 minute job of replacing the defrost controller board that I already diagnosed before he got there.  It's like a couple of screws and a couple of "jumper" cables you just plug in and BOOM you're done.  He floated numbers earlier like $500 to replace it, that number went up to $600 before he left.  Sources on web forums say between $100-$300 to have this professionally diagnosed and replaced.

He took at look at our air filters.  I service these every month.  These had no more than 3 weeks of dust on them.  He proclaimed them as "filthy".  I checked them myself.  Zero dust bunnies, very thin layer of dust.  We have no pets, no smokers in the house.  This guy is full of shit.  Every HVAC guy I ever had in the house is full of shit.  That's why I always have a different one.  Never found anyone honest enough to have the same person here twice.

Then he crawled up in the attic.  Bent the drip tray under the air handler, and with his big clumsy feet he ripped the wire out of the float switch in the tray that goes to the thermostat.  Either he didn't notice this or he was hoping we wouldn't notice this, but when he tried coming down from the attic I sent him right back up to figure out why the thermostat (which was working fine before) now had a blank screen.  He spent nearly an hour up there, and tried to quietly Nextel one of his buddies for a consult to figure out why something like this might happen.  He did eventually figure it out.

Then he tried to charge $20 more for the service call than we were quoted on the phone. 

I cut him a check for the originally agreed upon price and was happy to see him gone.

Are there any HVAC guys lurking about here?  Any idea what it should actually cost for a defrost controller board for a Trane XL1200 heat pump?

[MaineShark]

Are there any HVAC guys lurking about here?  Any idea what it should actually cost for a defrost controller board for a Trane XL1200 heat pump?

Not off the top of my head, but I'll email one of my suppliers and see if I can get a price.  I don't sell Trane, so they may not be willing to give me a price on that, but I can certainly check.

As far as the quality issue... yeah, there are a lot of idiots out there.  They get the government license and assume that means they know what they are doing.  I don't have the paperwork from the Feds, and I know more about the subject than most of them.  I do everything except the actual refrigerant, and then pay a sub-contractor to braze the piping and charge the system, so I don't have to deal with the Feds.

There's no license needed for electrical parts (at least, not Federally - your locale might have their own) - the Federal restrictions are just the actual handling of refrigerant.

Joe

[yonder]

My wife found a web site that sells some Trane repair parts to homeowners directly.  We're narrowing a couple of possibilities down, but at most this part should cost $200 direct to homeowner.

And this knucklehead is talking $500-$600 or more just for this one part.

We're trying to see if we can get some books to figure out how to do a lot of the non-refrigerant maintenance on it ourselves.

I actually had the refrigerant license for R12 many years ago.  The license was dirt simple to get.  I was just a layman, in a room full of ASE certified auto mechanics.  We all watched a short training video and then took a one page examination.  Keep in mind I never worked on a car's air conditioning system before this.  I just wanted to be able to buy R12.  I only got one question wrong on that exam, and it was to explain what a certain organization's acronym stood for (which had absolutely nothing to do with the safe handling of Freon).

I imagine they have added some layers of bureaucracy since then.  But I have no interest in doing the refrigerant maintenance myself.  The electronics?  Yeah, I'm a little more comfortable with that.  The manufacturer has actually made it relatively user friendly.

[MaineShark]

My wife found a web site that sells some Trane repair parts to homeowners directly.  We're narrowing a couple of possibilities down, but at most this part should cost $200 direct to homeowner.

And this knucklehead is talking $500-$600 or more just for this one part.

We're trying to see if we can get some books to figure out how to do a lot of the non-refrigerant maintenance on it ourselves.

Was the $500-600 for the part, or the part+installation?

That's a high mark-up for the part, alone (particularly since his price is much likely lower than $200), but with the labor costs in some areas, that wouldn't be overly high for the installed cost.  High, but not overly high.  There are some companies even in NH that charge $180/hr for labor.

I actually had the refrigerant license for R12 many years ago.  The license was dirt simple to get.  I was just a layman, in a room full of ASE certified auto mechanics.  We all watched a short training video and then took a one page examination.  Keep in mind I never worked on a car's air conditioning system before this.  I just wanted to be able to buy R12.  I only got one question wrong on that exam, and it was to explain what a certain organization's acronym stood for (which had absolutely nothing to do with the safe handling of Freon).

I imagine they have added some layers of bureaucracy since then.  But I have no interest in doing the refrigerant maintenance myself.  The electronics?  Yeah, I'm a little more comfortable with that.  The manufacturer has actually made it relatively user friendly.

Yeah, from what I hear, they added a large section on when different laws went into effect.  Which is silly, since they're already in effect, so what does that matter?  And they include laws that have been repealed or replaced, as well.

So yeah, no interest in dealing with that idiocy.

Joe

[ny2nh]

I believe that if you pass all sections of the exam and get the universal certification that it is good forever on all refrigerants. That might have changed in the past few years for all I know though.

[yonder]

Was the $500-600 for the part, or the part+installation?

Presumably both.  We don't have a quote yet, per se.  Just an estimate from a service technician that was billed specifically as a "Trane heat pump specialist". 

That's a high mark-up for the part, alone (particularly since his price is much likely lower than $200), but with the labor costs in some areas, that wouldn't be overly high for the installed cost.  High, but not overly high.  There are some companies even in NH that charge $180/hr for labor.

It gets better.  I found the part online.  It is $60.  10 minutes of labor to install, tops.  Figure they have to roll a truck, hour of labor, some markup, etc. I can accept that this might cost in the ballpark of $200 to have a professional come out and do it.  $500 is an insult to my intelligence.  $600 might even be worth some choice insults and questioning the certainty of his paternal lineage.

For another $20 I can get the sensor that connects the controller board to the outside coils.  He didn't mention changing this sensor, but if I'm already in there this is probably worth proactively changing anyway.

So for $80 + shipping + 10-15 minutes of my time I save $400-$500.  From what I saw of this guy's hands-on capabilities, I'll probably do a better job than the guberment-licensed "professional" as well.

[yonder]

I believe that if you pass all sections of the exam and get the universal certification that it is good forever on all refrigerants. That might have changed in the past few years for all I know though.

My certification was strictly good for R12 refrigerant and the training only covered automotive coolant recovery.

[MaineShark]

Presumably both.  We don't have a quote yet, per se.  Just an estimate from a service technician that was billed specifically as a "Trane heat pump specialist".

Yeah, those certifications are pretty easy to acquire.

It gets better.  I found the part online.  It is $60.  10 minutes of labor to install, tops.  Figure they have to roll a truck, hour of labor, some markup, etc. I can accept that this might cost in the ballpark of $200 to have a professional come out and do it.  $500 is an insult to my intelligence.  $600 might even be worth some choice insults and questioning the certainty of his paternal lineage.

Yeah, that's pretty silly to charge, if the part is that inexpensive.

For another $20 I can get the sensor that connects the controller board to the outside coils.  He didn't mention changing this sensor, but if I'm already in there this is probably worth proactively changing anyway.

Good idea.

So for $80 + shipping + 10-15 minutes of my time I save $400-$500.  From what I saw of this guy's hands-on capabilities, I'll probably do a better job than the guberment-licensed "professional" as well.

Yup.  There's a lot that a skilled homeowner can do.  That's why I'm going to be designing a "boiler in a box" setup.  Basically, all the controls, pumps, etc. are connected up and installed in a cabinet.  The installer just pipes from the boiler to the cabinet, and then from the cabinet to the zones.  Bring power in, and connect up the sensors to the terminal strip, and you're done.  You get a properly-designed system, and all the complex labor, and then can do the basic stuff yourself.  The construction of the system is done on a bench, rather than in someone's basement, so it goes quicker and that keeps the cost of labor down.

Then, with a bunch of customers who have "known" systems, a diagnostic flowchart becomes easy, and they can often maintain it themselves, too.

Joe

[yonder]

This story has a happy ending.

We sent an email to their corporate office last night.  Late this morning the branch office manager called my wife and asked what he could do to make this right.  She told him something along the lines of just wanting a refund for the completely non-productive service call.  The manager made a counter-offer, and said he would send out his best technician (the field supervisor) and no matter what it cost in parts & labor, it would cost us nothing but the $69 we already paid for the original service call. 

She mentioned to the manager that we had another more highly recommended local HVAC guy come out and he pointed at a valve that would cost $700-$800 to repair.  The manager was quiet for a moment and considered this possibility and then said "if that's the problem, we'll fix that for free".

Less than 30 minutes later the field supervisor was at the house doing all of the diagnostics that the first guy botched.

By the time I got home from work, our heat pump was doing its thing and the house was warm.  The parts that were replaced were the ones that I had diagnosed yesterday.

[MaineShark]

Excellent.

I guess they understand the 3/11 rule...

If you do it right, you can expect them to tell 3 people.  If you do it wrong, you can expect them to tell 11 people.

It's important to do things right in order to gain customers.  But if you mess up, it's very important to fix it ASAP, before you lose 11 potential customers.

When you mess up, you fix it, and you fix it fast.  Even if it's not "your fault."  I did an install which was delayed several times because one of my suppliers kept messing up orders.  Totally beyond my control, and totally their fault (the purchase orders is signed off on showed the correct material - they were just grabbing the wrong items from the shelf).  Still, I gave the customer a discount.  Later, I used that customer as a reference for another customer, and landed the second-biggest job I've done, partially as a result of his recommendation.

Joe

[David]

It is shockingly amazing how poor the service is in some industries.  It is due to the bean counters.  They try to run a business like a textbook says to run it, and at some level of theoretical perfection.  It is the number one reason I hate working for others. 
I like your approach Joe.   

[MaineShark]

It is shockingly amazing how poor the service is in some industries.  It is due to the bean counters.  They try to run a business like a textbook says to run it, and at some level of theoretical perfection.  It is the number one reason I hate working for others. 
I like your approach Joe.   

Thanks.  Although that 3/11 thing is in the textbook, if the bean counters would bother to read the "customer service" chapter

It's very hard to convince a bean counter that saving $10 today, even though it costs you $110 next year, is a bad thing.  That's next year, and they're certain they'll find someplace else they can save $110 by then.  They don't realize that they are institutionalizing that mindset, and next year they will need to save a lot more than $110 to make up for all those many, many "$10 saving" opportunities that they and their employees took this year.

I read a good article a few months back on reducing violations of the company policies and employee theft, which basically asked why business owners should expect their employees to treat them any different than the owner treats customers and suppliers.  If you keep those few extra parts that the wholesaler accidentally delivered, and you tell your employee to pad Mrs. Smith's bill, why should you be surprised when you find that you're missing some stock from your own shop, and the employees have been padding their timecards?

It's not rocket science.  It just takes setting standards, and actually living by them.

Joe

[grasshopper]

http://bestbuyheatingandairconditioning.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DC

  Tell me if it is on this list.  They even have uopgraded boards.  About $149.00
   Just tell em your buddy is certified to work on this machine and have em send you the part.