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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn  (Read 7207 times)

David

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 03:06 PM NHFT »

I agree that the constitution is not a social contract.  But I believe that most people believe it is. 
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MobileDigit

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 03:23 PM NHFT »

I agree that the constitution is not a social contract.  But I believe that most people believe it is. 

I don't think most people give it much thought. The best they can come up with is the love it or leave it argument, which is predicated on the idea that aggressing against people is alright as long as they can leave the area of aggression. No matter that the aggression is illegitimate in the first place.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 03:25 PM NHFT »

The US Constitution is a social contract. The US Government is not... it is a party to that contract.
They were first used to protect individuals within a society from the sovereign rule of monarchs. The sovereign rule of monarchs being based on 'might makes right'. The various social contracts (Charter of Liberties, Papers of the Magna Carta Libertatum) placed restrictions on the 'might makes right' proponent of sovereignty.
The US Constitution is (supposedly) an individuals protection against 'might makes right' of the majority.
 
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srqrebel

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 02:06 PM NHFT »

The US Constitution is a social contract.

As far as I'm aware, a contract can only bind those who voluntarily consent to it.

I know I have never voluntarily consented to any "social contract", so whatever else it is, the US Constitution is certainly not a comprehensive "social contract".
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 08:53 PM NHFT »

Its an 'implied' contract written for (more) clarity.
The ZAP is a social contract... which as discussion on this forum has shown is not always clear either.
Its application is not total, as witnessed by the number of murders, assaults, and rapes... but it attempted outcome is roughly the same. To limit the force of might on the individual.

The problem becomes when this 'social contract' aspect is not understood. The original version of Constitutions are to bind the force of government and protect the individual. But later amendments of such can do just the opposite. An example was the 16th. This was an attempt to bind individuals (the wealthy) that freed government force to be used on the masses.


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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 11:48 PM NHFT »

:BangHead:

The “social construct” is an ex post facto rationale invented to justify the existence of the State.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2008, 02:15 PM NHFT »

I don't think so. As I said the Native Americans in this area had a confederation of tribes and a Constitution prior to the arrival of Europeans. Since a non-aggression policy is just a social contract, does it justify the State?
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Pat McCotter

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 08:23 AM NHFT »

I don't think so. As I said the Native Americans in this area had a confederation of tribes and a Constitution prior to the arrival of Europeans. Since a non-aggression policy is just a social contract, does it justify the State?

But the Wyandot refused to join the confederacy and warred with it.
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srqrebel

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 01:15 PM NHFT »

Since a non-aggression policy is just a social contract, does it justify the State?

Sovereignty, or self-dominion, is the natural state of the conscious individual.  Anyone who has made the paradigm shift required to understand this, will not aggress -- regardless of anyone else's opinion, and regardless of opportunity.

Self-dominion is held in equal status between all conscious individuals.  Rational self-interest dictates decisively that this nature must be honored at all times.  When one fully comprehends the implications of the equally held status of self-dominion between all conscious individuals, it becomes clear that one's own self-dominion cannot ever be separated from the equal self-dominion of others. 

In essence, violating the nature of another conscious individual is a simultaneous violation of one's own nature.  Anyone who has fully undergone this paradigm shift, is naturally prevented from aggressing by the powerful force of rational self-interest -- just as a business owner is naturally prevented from shooting his customers by the powerful force of rational self-interest.

The most intrinsic, inseparable characteristic of the conscious individual is the priority of self.  This can be disguised, but never, ever overcome.  Any attempt at establishing a "social contract" is futile, because it is an irrational attempt to override this intrinsic nature, and compel the individual to give priority to the best interest of others.

The only way a peaceful civilization can ever exist, is for each participant to instinctively grasp that honoring the self-dominion of others is ultimately the most effective and efficient way to act in their own best interest.  This can only occur through a widespread paradigm shift.

Abandon the branches... forget striking the root -- disconnect the taproot and be free!
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2008, 08:58 AM NHFT »

That goes against human history and animal nature.
Sovereignty has existed, it seldom is without aggression.

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srqrebel

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2008, 12:57 PM NHFT »

That goes against human history and animal nature.
Sovereignty has existed, it seldom is without aggression.



Those are all very lucid observations, and they underscore everything I am saying.

It goes against human history because up to now, humans have not completely abandoned their animal nature.

According to Julian Jaynes, in his book The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind, mankind made a giant evolutionary leap from the 100% reactionary bicameral/animal mind approximately 3000 years ago.

In The Neo-Tech Discovery, Dr. Frank R. Wallace identified that ever since then, man has operated as a partially conscious, partially reactionary being -- only spending as much effort on conscious thought as necessary to "get by", while remaining in the primitive reactionary mode most of the time.

We are now entering the next evolutionary leap toward 100% conscious thought, which is the source of control.

During man's original animal nature, there was no self-awareness, and aggression was the rule of the game.  Just as in the animal world today, right made right, the weak succumbed to the strong, and that was just the harsh reality of life.  This is the most primitive order in nature, no different from a tree succumbing to the more powerful force of a forest fire, or a deer succumbing to a pack of wolves.

When man made the evolutionary leap to the present biconscious mind, new rules of the game arose.  With self-awareness came empathy, and it suddenly made sense to live and let live, and only employ violence in self-defense.  Out of this arose a higher order that better served the needs of the individual, which we call civilization.

Yet because of the vestige of our reactionary animal nature remaining in the present order, there are (at least) two seriously flawed premises: 1) The notion that in some cases might still makes right (self-defense), and 2) the notion of "external authority".

The most heinous consequences of these flawed premises are the widespread destruction of war, and the existence of an elite class of parasites.  Both of these now threaten the very existence of human civilization, making it imperative to enter the next evolutionary leap to the Civilization of Peace and Prosperity now.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 01:05 PM NHFT by srqrebel »
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David

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2008, 08:13 PM NHFT »


It may be a crappy idea, but it is what I have. 
Most believe, in the usa anyway that the constitution is some sort of 'social contract'.  Of course it isn't, but the idea that it is somehow legitimizes the gov't. 
A while back I found a website called contract for liberty.  It was exactly that.  (it seems to be gone now) The basic idea here http://wiki.freetalklive.com/Contract_for_liberty
It isn't gov't that I actually hate, it is their violence, and threats that I vehemently hate.  So if it would be possible to create a working  governing group, or club, that functions without the very things that make traditional gov'ts so bad, I would be happy.  Instead of an investment club, it would be a governing club. 
Any pet issue that someone has can be included in their little 'club', welfare, care for the old and or disabled, free (to the user) school, etc. 
The authoritarians could make one that has their idea of authority and freedom as they see it to their hearts content.
A person choosing to submit to something I would find objectionable is not bad, so long as they don't hurt me or encroach on me. 

If a real alternative to gov't can be found, then the near religious belief in gov't can maybe be cracked. 

Any thoughts?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2008, 04:48 AM NHFT »

There is always government... in that being sovereign you are in essence self-governed. The problem becomes the absolute of the societal-based relationship.
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MobileDigit

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Re: Many yearn for freedom, but have no where to turn
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2008, 02:09 PM NHFT »


It may be a crappy idea, but it is what I have. 
Most believe, in the usa anyway that the constitution is some sort of 'social contract'.  Of course it isn't, but the idea that it is somehow legitimizes the gov't. 
A while back I found a website called contract for liberty.  It was exactly that.  (it seems to be gone now) The basic idea here http://wiki.freetalklive.com/Contract_for_liberty
It isn't gov't that I actually hate, it is their violence, and threats that I vehemently hate.  So if it would be possible to create a working  governing group, or club, that functions without the very things that make traditional gov'ts so bad, I would be happy.  Instead of an investment club, it would be a governing club. 
Any pet issue that someone has can be included in their little 'club', welfare, care for the old and or disabled, free (to the user) school, etc. 
The authoritarians could make one that has their idea of authority and freedom as they see it to their hearts content.
A person choosing to submit to something I would find objectionable is not bad, so long as they don't hurt me or encroach on me. 

If a real alternative to gov't can be found, then the near religious belief in gov't can maybe be cracked. 

Any thoughts?

So how do we transition to it?
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srqrebel

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