Gambling Disobedience (Military Veterans + the public?)

[David]

May I suggest an unautorized gambling event that is very public.  Have a drawing for a small amount done in an identical way to the state lottery.  All proceeds to the liberty scholarship fund, that is if they want to be the benificiaries of money earned through civil dis.   otherwise donate all the money to the charity of the choice of the winner/s. 
Make it very public. 
Make it an illegal version of the legal state lottery. 
Make it an unautorized charity event. 

[FTL_Ian]

May I suggest an unautorized gambling event that is very public.  Have a drawing for a small amount done in an identical way to the state lottery.  All proceeds to the liberty scholarship fund, that is if they want to be the benificiaries of money earned through civil dis.   otherwise donate all the money to the charity of the choice of the winner/s. 

This is a good idea, but it may not be illegal if prize money is not awarded to any participants.

Perhaps 50% should be donated to charity and the other 50% to the raffle winner. 

[FTL_Ian]

As you probably know, Free Minds TV's & FreeKeene's "Freedom Fest" happens thrice yearly (with good weather) on Main Street in Keene.

Last year we had OPH, Free Minds TV, the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance, Liberty Scholarship Fund, the Keene Free Press, and FIJA all doing outreach.  It would be awesome to add a civil disobedience aspect to "Freedom Fest".  It would do a lot to get other media besides FMTV and FTL to pay attention to the event, and therefore bring out more interested parties and lookie-loos.

Eventually, we could have an open container, gambling, marijuana, topless Civil Disobedience.   

[FTL_Ian]

So, on this gambling disobedience, Nick has offered to deal and today Menno expressed interest in playing.  I believe David may be planning a lotto.  Freedom Fest could be a lot of fun!

FYI: Gambling in New Hampshire is a misdemeanor.  I don't know about you, but I don't consent to government law.

I don't particularly like gambling, but it's really time to end prohibition, so I'm considering getting into this game.

[FTL_Ian]

In related news, a Milford man has copped a plea to running gambling machines:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13048.0

He would be sentenced to two years on probation and 200 hours of community service, with a $2,000 fine and a 12-month jail sentence to remain suspended so long as he stays out of trouble.

[Dave Ridley]

David's idea is brilliant.  make it as much of a charity event as possible
whoever takes winnings could always donate them later to charity...altho that could give them an excuse to avoid arresting him.

The milford timing is interesting
what about some kind of event outside the courthouse where the guy is on trial?  they begin the trial around march 3 i think.    we already did a FIJA event there yesterday and I was assuming we might do another one in two weeks anyway.

i wonder if having the charity poker outside the courthouse would get the most bang for the buck.   
but my instinct is that the area in front of the offending bureaucracy might be best.

it might be good to know a little more about the person whose persecution we are speaking out against.

[Russell Kanning]

I like the idea of Ian doing a little time in the clink .... can you imagine how nuts the listeners would get?

[Dave Ridley]

Couple more questions / thoughts I had about this idea:

What are all its advantages and disadvantages?  Should it be all vets or a mix?  It seems like we do have enough vets coming forward.
How much physical cooperation should be afforded the police, assuming they show up?   Would it be appropriate to do as Mike Fisher did, obeying their physical orders once informed of his arrest....and walking with them to the squad car?   Or would it be better to do it the way Gandhi did near the beginnning of the movie...where he continues placing identity papers into the fire until his movements are physically stopped by the cops?

I like the latter better, because then they are having to grab your hands, physically seize your belongings, drag you away from your activity, etc.   It just makes the violence, limited thought it may be, all the more visible.

The other questions would be do you make them drag you all the way to a squad car, all over the jail, into court, etc.

Russell says making them drag you around jail is not helpful to our cause if you're a male...because the corrections officers don't get it, just think you're a hippie, etc.   I tend to concur.   On the other hand there might be some advantages in making them drag you away from  your game.  I guess the question would be at what point does one begin walking where told to walk?    I'm thinking that point is reached after one has been placed in the squad car and the point has been made.   The goal isn't necessarily to be a pain in the ass in jail but rather to make sure they have to choose between using physical force in public....or letting you continue your games right in front of the regulatory bureaucracy.

Other questions:  What should one say to the judge?  My brainstorm (based on Rev. Revere's writings) would be to say you are not ready to proceed, because all of the available lawyers are licensed by the plaintiff.  Not sure this would work too well in new hampshire since i heard even the public defenders are somewhat separated from the State.   But certainly no lawyer your hire will ever be allowed to tell a jury it may judge the law!

What to do if summoned to court from home?   Mike Fisher suggests standing outside the courthouse as your hearing or trial begins, refusing to enter.

Just some thoughts...

For now I do favor doing it in front of the offending bureaucracy, not stopping when told to, continuing to do all the physicall things associated with the game until physically restrained from it, refusing to walk to the squad car, pronouncing yourself "not ready to proceed" if dragged before a judge and, if summoned to a courthouse....standing outside that courthouse refusing to enter while your trial or hearing proceeds.

I could change my mind on any one of these if presented with a compelling reason why some other course would have better effect.

Another question would be whether to eat and or drink while jailed... and in this instance I would think probably yes.  Refusing water would be something to do as a last ditch defense if you were jailed on their terms rather than your own.   For example, if they came after you by surprise one day or something and you were really backed into a corner.

[Dave Ridley]

The advantages I see: 

It's timely with this trial underway soon
It can be done now rather than waiting for May 11 (real id) or Jan 2009 (payday lending)
it doesn't require any type of trespass
We can get decent numbers of disobeyers...looks like maybe 3 at this point
The issue is already in the press
It's pro-veteran and will involve one or more veterans
It's visual
All the living perpetrators of the unjust law are pretty much guaranteed to hear what happened
It could help us broaden our base of activists
It's someone else's idea rather than mine


The disadvantages: 
Gambling is not 100% innocuous in the public mind, not to the same extent as something like manicuring
It seems difficult to contact veterans' groups around here; I tried once.
It might be hard to turn it into a charity event and still break the law
It would almost have to be done during or before the Milford trial, to achieve max impact

[FTL_Ian]

Overcoming Objections:

The disadvantages: 
Gambling is not 100% innocuous in the public mind, not to the same extent as something like manicuring

With the exception of Puritans I think that gambling is relatively acceptable amongst most of the population.

It seems difficult to contact veterans' groups around here; I tried once.

There's no point in contacting the veterans groups.  Is unlikely we'll be able to convince them to participate.  Besides, the participants should be liberty activists, not average veterans.

It might be hard to turn it into a charity event and still break the law

No, it won't.  Take a look at the "law".  Running a raffle without government permission is a misdemeanor. 

It would almost have to be done during or before the Milford trial, to achieve max impact

While that would probably maximize impact, it seems the government people take this law pretty seriously so any publicized, public iteration of this civil disobedience should generate publicity.

[dalebert]

I think Bald Eagle has a pretty good point about effective civil disobedience. It would be cool if someone gave a class on it at Porcfest, but I think this post alone has a lot of useful information to maximize the bang for the buck, so to speak.

http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=12861.msg222039#msg222039

[Russell Kanning]

Russell says making them drag you around jail is not helpful to our cause if you're a male...because the corrections officers don't get it, just think you're a hippie, etc.

Depends on each person I think. It is also a size thing.
Since this might be a first for this group ... you guys might want to not cooperate on a few things and build up each time.
I like being a pain in jail ... but in a passive fun way .... I just want them wish I was not there monkeywrenching things.

Smiling is good ... and talking to them as real people .... unless you are lauren and like giving them the silent treatment.

I don't recommend paper airplanes at your trial ... I lost that one.
I do recommend you practice "contempt of court".
I don't recommend paying any them any money.

[Dave Ridley]

Since this discussion seems kind of stalled the last few days... here is a scenario I'd like to lay out to get it moving again; you guys tell me what you think.     Before I lay it out I have to say it might be more effectively led by veterans than by me, and if anyone thinks I should step aside on this you should say so. 

But the brainstorm is this: 

What if I go ahead and write a letter to the Liquor Commissioner informing him that I'll be hosting an illegal gambling event on the right-of-way outside the Commission office in Concord.   The event is intended to show support for harmless people, especially old VFW guys,  who are so frequently abused by the Commission.  The idea is...they fought for our freedom; now we're returning the favor.

Signs could read "Liquor Commish Abuses Veterans."

A date would probably need to be set between March 3 and March 5.   

I think this issue may be an even better issue to take a stand on than the rights of young vets to drink.  Compared to alchohol, gambling is probably less abused to the endangerment of third parties.  And the slot machine penalties!  My God, max penalty is like seven years for allowing gambling on your slot machines!   It's almost totalitarian! 

he timing on all this is perfect...I'm in a good position to do civil dis righ now but i'm afraid if too much time passes something will come along that gets in the way.
also we need something to rally the slowly dispersing Ron Paul meetup groups soon and show them a new way of peaceable resistance. Maybe it would help rally some veterans too, who knows. 

I say let's do it and in the absence of some undiscovered problem with this particular civil dis option....or some reason why i should not go get arrested....I'm ready to do it.

Roger are you available to videotape?  Who else is? 

[FTL_Ian]

I will definitely be there shooting video.

[Tom Sawyer]

I will definitely be there shooting video.

I am unable to commit for the near future.