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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Paul calling for march on Washington  (Read 6437 times)

kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 03:13 PM NHFT »

why the march? I answered it correctly but heres his quote: "to find out where the numbers are"


http://www.dailypaul.com/node/38032
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 03:17 PM NHFT by kola »
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d_goddard

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 03:14 PM NHFT »

I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be huge.
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kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 03:24 PM NHFT »

its better than doing nothing.

unless you choose to escape the sytem entirely and non-comply.

but that as well has its consequences.

Kola
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 05:18 PM NHFT »

I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be huge.

 Yes, that would be useful.
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Jared

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 05:23 PM NHFT »

I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.
I could not disagree more.
The march will not achieve its stated goals... however, if a few dozen FSPers can get there with a bunch of FSP/RP flyers, the impact could be huge.

 Yes, that would be useful.

i'd think you'd be all over this ian, for advertising purposes if nothing else
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srqrebel

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2008, 12:16 PM NHFT »

I predict this march will do a whole lot of nothing.

Most marches don't achieve anything external except a slightly larger profile in the public consciousness

...and that is one of the biggest reasons why I resolutely refuse to participate.  That statement, coming from an astute freedom lover, of course requires an explanation.  Whoever is honest enough to exert an open mind, keep reading:

Under the right conditions, mass public demonstrations have sparked off sweeping changes.

Certainly.  The most effective ones have even sparked revolutions!

What has every revolution gotten us (even the American Revolution, so highly regarded by many freedom lovers)?

New boss, same as the old boss. 

We didn't start the fire... but we tried to fight it.  Good intentions, yes -- in fact, noble.

The fire now rages bigger than ever, consuming everything in its path.

One does not use fire to put out a flame.  It just doesn't work.

You just don't get relief from the choking effect of government by appealing to government.

I'd rather march than forever ponder whether the pre-conditions for change have been met.

Would you build a house for yourself without making certain the pre-conditions for house-building have been met?

Would you sink your life savings into starting a business without making certain the pre-conditions for a successful business have been met?

Would you jump out of an airplane without making certain the pre-conditions for a safe jump have been met?

Would you opt to have children without making certain the pre-conditions for successful child rearing have been met?

Does it make sense to rush blindly into action, when the future of the entire human race is at stake?

its better than doing nothing.

Here is the core fallacy.

Building a house without having a clue about soil stability, structural design, etc., is better than doing nothing, right?

Sinking your life savings into a startup venture without having a clue about the market for your product, logistics, etc., is better than doing nothing, right?

Jumping randomly out of an airplane without having a clue about parachutes, or skydiving, is better than doing nothing, right?

Going ahead and having children without having a clue about birthing, child rearing, or whether you can swing the financial burden, is better than doing nothing, right?

Taking blind action to spark sweeping changes in the world we live in, without having a clue about the final outcome of those actions, is better than doing nothing, right?

Right?


unless you choose to escape the sytem entirely and non-comply.


Bingo!

Now you are spraying water on fire!


but that as well has its consequences.


Certainly it does.  Being effective is not comfortable or easy. 

If you want it badly enough, the only thing that matters is that your actions are effective.



Back to the original quote (above):

A march on Washington will indeed effect "a slightly larger profile in the public consciousness".

Jumping out of an airplane randomly and cluelessly would also effect the desired exhilarating experience, wouldn't it?

But would the final outcome be for better or for worse?

A march on Washington would expose more people to the message of freedom.  That could only be a good thing right?

Building a house with no structural integrity would result in a house to live in.  That could only be a good thing, right?

Exposing people to the message of freedom through a march on the seat of government, only spreads the faulty paradigm that government is the source of salvation -- "all we have to do is appeal to it to save us from its grip".

Those "newly awoken" will end up wasting large chunks of limited time and other resources blindly prolonging the existence of the very thing they want to be free of.

And even worse, once in place, that is a tenacious paradigm to overcome.  Because now they are under the impression that they have already awoken, when in fact they have not.


So what are we to do... sit back and do nothing, and hope things work out?

Absolutely not!

Unless you just don't want it badly enough to go the distance.  In which case that is the better option.  By far.

Because otherwise, you just end up making matters worse.  Not just for everyone else who wants freedom, but most importantly for yourself.


The strategic actions that will finally bring about an end to the Authoritarian Model of Government (AMOG), and spur the dawn of the Civilization of Peace and Prosperity, are these:

1) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.

2) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.

3) Withdraw all personal support and recognition from the AMOG.

4) Use all available media and internet resources to clearly articulate why you are doing it, and appeal only to the non-parasitic masses to do the same.  Paint them a picture of the ultimate rewards of doing so -- freedom, peace, and prosperity -- in vivid detail.  Reframe the issues, change their paradigm.  Vanish the illusions that form the basis of the AMOG.  Make certain your own actions reflect and illustrate the accurate paradigm of freedom.

5) Create, patronize, and promote viable alternatives to the services monopolized by the AMOG, wherever possible.


Each individual that truly abandons the AMOG is dumping water on the fire.  Don't let the fact that the fire is way too big for one individual to put out, create the illusion that you are better off joining forces with those who use fire to fight fire.

You have three choices:

1) Use flames to put out the fire.  -Counterproductive

2) Do nothing at all.  -Neutral

3) Use water to put out the fire.  -Productive


Imagine what would happen if all who desire freedom just abandoned the AMOG.  Just said a resounding "NO".  And made it crystal clear to the spectating masses why they are doing it.

People would start to think about things they never thought of before.

They would see the real source of the world's (their) problems: The Authoritarian Model Of Government itself.

They would start getting pissed off.  At the real source of the world's problems.

As more people start to see it and get pissed off, they spread the paradigm to others around them.

Some, perhaps many, of them would get hauled to jail for refusing to submit.  That would piss off their loved ones... and get them thinking even more.

Many of their loved ones would feel compelled to show their displeasure in the same way.

Think about it: What often happens when a very well-liked employee gets fired unfairly?

A mass walkout.  Those coworkers don't care as much about their steady paycheck as they care about justice.  I have observed this with my own eyes -- in fact participated in it on two occasions.

This is really powerful stuff, guys.  Make no mistake about it.

Let them fill their jails with innocent.  It can only serve to expose their evil core -- and hasten the spread of the new paradigm.

Ayn Rand had it wrong.  Jail is the real Galt's Gulch.

In today's world, when Atlas shrugs, he goes to jail.  That's in fact better than mere shrugging -- not only do they no longer benefit from Atlas, now they have to provide for his continued existence.

Unless they want a fiery revolution on their hands.  Because that is exactly what will happen in this particular geographic territory if they started executing the innocent -- like it or not.

Trust me, they do not want a revolution.  Revolutions do leave the system of oppression in place, but they just as surely have a tendency to topple those currently in power.

This places those who pose as 'government' in a catch-22.  They can now only go in one direction: Retreat.

Into oblivion.


That is the thing I want to see happening.  You can bet I am, and will be, taking resolute, strategic action to make that happen.  My aim is to make it attractive for others to follow suit.  That requires careful design, both in terms of action and articulation.

Yet even if no one ever followed suit, my conscience will be clear knowing my actions will be at least minimally productive by design, rather than counterproductive as a predictable result of deliberate blindness.
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kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2008, 12:31 PM NHFT »

Quote
Here is the core fallacy.

Building a house without having a clue about soil stability, structural design, etc., is better than doing nothing, right?

And what are the options? freeze to death due to the lack of shelter??
Or build some half-assed shelter and take the risk? Building the half-assed shelter gives you and your family "a chance".

Kola
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Caleb

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2008, 12:32 PM NHFT »

You tell 'em, Menno!  ;D
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kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2008, 12:39 PM NHFT »

Tell me menno, Do you know of anyone who has entirely escaped the system?

I admire your ideas (on paper) but to fully execute them and be successful is a whole new ballgame.
(ie The Browns, Randy Weaver etc)


And if marches and political activisim (non violent and violent revolutions) restore some (or all) freedom, would you reap those benefits as well? You would be OK with riding the coattails of others who fought and died for your freedom?

Kola
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 12:44 PM NHFT by kola »
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kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2008, 12:42 PM NHFT »

Tell me Menno, do you think the Vietnam war ending had anything to do with every college campus protesting?

Kola
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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2008, 12:42 PM NHFT »

srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons.  But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking.  I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it.  If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert.  :o
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Caleb

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2008, 12:48 PM NHFT »

What do you like about Sununu, Sandy? Because I have to admit that the willingness of so-called "freedom lovers" to hop in bed and whore themselves with Sununu was a key factor in making me realize that most of those in the FSP just really, truly, aren't on MY side. They are on the side of the bad guys.

And why do you say you support torture?

Kola, I think the point that Menno is trying to make is that when you cooperate with the system and work within it, you only strengthen its legitimacy. You might get rid of some onerous law, but you have done so only at the expense of making people think "Hey, the system works!"

The one valid idea that Ayn Rand had was this:  The system can only be defeated by standing back, refusing to make it work, and letting it collapse on the weight of its own evil. When we try to make it work (by injecting some shred of human decency in a system that is inherently opposed to humanity) we increase it's legitimacy in the eyes of people who desperately need to see its true nature.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 12:52 PM NHFT by Caleb »
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kola

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2008, 01:13 PM NHFT »

Quote
Kola, I think the point that Menno is trying to make is that when you cooperate with the system and work within it, you only strengthen its legitimacy.

How is a march/protest "cooperating" with the sytem?

One is NOT cooperating with the sytem.

They are not "working within" but working against it. It's not putting gas on fire.

A bunch folks getting together and standing up for something is their "own doings". Sending a message a and saying "fuck you bastards" is better than hiding under a rock..which in this day in age is IMPOSSIBLE to do.

Caleb, if you are non par person, would you be OK with riding the coat-tails of the folks that marched and died for freedom?   

Kola
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Kat Kanning

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2008, 01:17 PM NHFT »

srqrebel, I was pretty pissed about your Sununu protest at Liberty Forum, and haven't spent much time at this forum since, for that and other reasons.  But I just read through this thread, looking for more info on the potential march on Washington, and have to admit that your manifesto(?) above is pretty thought-provoking.  I also have been checking out Stefan Molyneux's writings recently, and while I whole-heartedly agree with some of it, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around other parts of it.  If you can point me in the direction of more instructional material on these sorts of ideas, perhaps in time you can chalk me up as a convert.  :o

Wowie!

Have you read any of the voluntaryist stuff?  http://voluntaryist.com 
Molyneux has a bunch of videos, too
Adventures in Legal Land has good info, too http://adventuresinlegalland.com
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Caleb

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Re: Paul calling for march on Washington
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2008, 01:25 PM NHFT »

It *IS* working within the system. It is asking the government to reconsider their actions. "Please, don't do this. It isn't humane." You are hoping that they do what you ask. The unstated belief of someone marching is that things would be better for them if the government was less evil, and that hopefully the government will choose to behave in a more benevolent way if we appeal to the decency of the people who run the government. But government by its nature is evil, and human decency cannot ultimately prevail under the reigning philosophy that some people ought to enforce their wills on the rest. Marching says, "please don't enforce your will on us" to a body whose very nature is to enforce its will. So it is counterproductive at best. And when apparently successful, it actually reinforces the belief that people have in its legitimacy. How many times have you heard people say, "See, the system works" when they believe justice has been served? How many times have you heard people who fervently disagree with the government beg people to work within the system to change things? How many times have you heard them fret about low voter turnout? The government wants people to invest in it, believe in it, feel that their voice is heard, because the one thing they can't suffer is you turning your back on it and giving up in it.

I am not free because anyone marched on Washington. I am not free because anybody joined some silly army and "fought" for my freedom. I am not free because some pretentious politician deigned to not completely shackle me. I am not free because I was born in the richest, most exploitative country in the world. I am free because I chose to be free.
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