Payday Loan civil dis?

[Dave Ridley]

as you may be aware, i'm a perfectionist about civil dis.  i think it's best done only when you're backed into a corner or the ideal opportunity presents.
This May we could have the ideal opportunity, handed to us on a platter by the increasingly cruel democrats.

Reading through the state regulatory bill which is about to pass into law...banning loans with an annual rate of return over 36 percent....

It seems like it *could* be the perfect storm.

Here's why:  it's a new restriction which can be violated in a visible way, just like the outlaw manicure.   because it's new; people aren't conditioned yet to accept it.  in addition, there is a pre existing , decently organized group which opposed the law and some of whom i've met.  it's a law which is nakedly evil as it puts hundreds of people out of work.   also, it is something we can use to draw attention to democrat mischief and hopefully get more of them out of office.   another advantage is that the news media is already somewhat on our side on this...union leader and concord monitor both published editorials against the bill. Lastly, it's conceiveable that recently unemployed loan operatives might be willing to join us in our crusade.  they are demoralized I suspect, but we could show them that is doesn't end when they pass a law.  Rather, it begins.

Here is the text of the bill
http://www.generalcourt.org/bills/2008/HB267

and here are my video reports on the bill, which passed the senate and house....soon to be signed by governor lynch according to him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cyrErW8fmQ

i'm guessing the dems have overplayed their hand and this might be the place to make an effective stand.

my brainstorm would be perhaps start giving out loans around may 1 once the law has gone into effect, do it on the sidewalk in front of the state house.  or maybe in front of democrat hq somehwere.  The loans would need to have at least a thirty seven percent annual rate of return to be illegal.   i dont think i would have to be anything other than a "lender" to fall under these restrictions...but one concern i have is the original law might be worded so that the changes only affect regulated instituions. I dont' know.

So often...a potential act of civil dis looks great until you eyeball it more closely and see flaws..  we'll see how many flaws this idea presents and whether they are outweighed by its advantages.   

Your thoughts guys? how would this best be done?

[Dave Ridley]

One thought I had on this was that even if they can't arrest an average joe like me for lending this way.... then maybe I could actually start a real business right there by state house grounds or something...

Another option might be this... commit the act in front of democrat party hq or governor lynch's house. 

[J’raxis 270145]

The loans would need to have at least a thirty seven percent annual rate of return to be illegal.

Sounds easy enough: You loan someone enough money to go buy something from a vending machine, street vendor, or whatever, depending on where the protest takes place, and he just comes back and immediately gives you back twice the amount of money.

One caveat, though. It might be a lot more difficult getting ordinary people to agree with you on this issue. Usury is such a thoroughly hated practice, especially in times of economic troubles, that all those people still locked in statist thought patterns probably agree with this law. To a lot of people, the government regulating nail-cutters is idiotic. The government regulating parasitic economic activity isn't.

[Caleb]

Is this really the issue you want to go to jail over?

And is your goal really to force Democrats from office? Is living a free life only useful for the political benefits that it could theoretically accrue to your preferred party of thugs?

Caleb

[J’raxis 270145]

[Without restarting the whole in-the-system vs. outside-the-system activism debate, I hope I can answer this:—]

I can't speak directly for Dave, but the anti-Democrat, pro-Republican sentiment you see with a lot of activists such as myself is strategic, not philosophical. The Republicans have, at least in New Hampshire, been mostly responsible for keeping it as free as it has been. The Democrats have been destroying that since they took over in '06. This bill, other regulatory increases, tax increases across the board, raising the tolls, proposals for gun restrictions, income taxes, &c., &c., have all been the doing of the Democrats.

[d_goddard]

I concur with Dave on this one.
This is a perfect opportunity for effective civ dis.

More of my thoughts on the "other" forum
http://www.nhliberty.org/forum/index.php?topic=429.0

I am willing to help in terms of doing some background research, and helping to get and fund any needed licenses so that the violation is JUST the 37% rate, NOT any laws concerning authorized vs unauthorized loan-making.

Oh, and I am willing to voluntarily accept a small loan with a clearly-stated 37% per annum interest rate

[Dave Ridley]

i'm on the fence regarding licensing myself

what i do know is that i need information:  what are the max-min penalties (i couldn't find any), would it be practical to force a jury trial, would i even be violating a law, would they even arrest me,  what would be all the charges they could levy against me for doing this and doing it on a sidewalk, how many republican party folks can we get involved in this peripherally especially reps and senators...

how long until the law goes into effect (i heard the cowards postponed implementation until after the election)

how does this potential civil dis stack up against my other two options.... (Real ID civil dis after may 11 at airport, FIJA civil dis at courthouse)
could i force a jury trial... how difficult would it be to give them only one thing they could arrest me for (violation of the new law).   How important is it that this be the charge rather than loitering or what not...  how much would it cost in time and money to get the licenses.... is it worth the trouble; would it benefit the government too much.

Would the public and media be at all supportive and if so how supportive...  who are some people I can contact in the loan industry in addition to terry roy...

those are the main questions i have for now....

Once you start looking more closely at a potential act of civil dis, you often discover flaws so let's flush em out and see if this still looks like the Perfect Opportunity.

I only plan to do one civil dis this year, if even that...so whatever it is let's make sure it's the right one.

[d_goddard]

FYI... I think this thread makes most sense on NHFree so I'll keep it here.
Feel free to lock the NHLiberty thread.

i'm on the fence regarding licensing myself

If the person making the load is unlicensed, then the protest is not about this specific law. I imagine the spin against the person would be that they "want no rules at all!" some some such nonsense. While getting licensed increases the prep work, it *vastly* increases the effectiveness of the demo, IMO.

what i do know is that i need information:  what are the max-min penalties (i couldn't find any), would it be practical to force a jury trial, would i even be violating a law, would they even arrest me,  what would be all the charges they could levy against me for doing this and doing it on a sidewalk, how many republican party folks can we get involved in this peripherally especially reps and senators...

I'll get back to you on these (unless someone else does first... feel free...)

how long until the law goes into effect

Jan 1, 2009

how does this potential civil dis stack up against my other two options.... (Real ID civil dis after may 11 at airport, FIJA civil dis at courthouse)

I think this one taps a much more positive nerve. People hate Real-ID, but relatively few people understand the need for private security.

You have a lot more Q's that need to be answered. I'll get back with info when I can

I do feel this is "The One"

[Caleb]

With all due respect, Denis only seems to feel that something is worthwhile if it is unimportant. I think RealID is a far more important issue, with much more dire implications.

Am I the only one who feels like we are in Nazi Germany, debating their business license regulations instead of focusing on the war and genocide?   "Oh that Hitler! He's out of control with this new seatbelt law. Let's march on Berlin and demand vehicle inspections every two years instead of every one! Maybe I could tease the Gestapo with some effective civil disobedience directed against the no-smoking law."  Jesus Christ!

[penguins4me]

Seems to me that both are important. Not too many folks will choose to risk becoming a "convicted felon", or have much of what they own stolen by "authorities", especially if they are mostly acting alone.

The Digital Millenium Copyright Act's stupid provisions stipulating federal prison time for 'bypassing a copy control device', no matter how weak, lame, or inconveniencing to legitimate customers, set me down the path to having a near-total abhorrence for the vast majority of laws on the US' books.

If demonstrating against other such despicable laws sets others down the path to being a lover of liberty, then who could possibly be against such activity?

[John Edward Mercier]

The problem most likely will come in the licensing. If you agree to obey all State laws as part of the licensing, then violate the law... it may simply mean the periodic loss of license and a fine (to be paid prior to reimplementation of the license). It would be a stronger civ dis if the law required you to be licensed to make the loan.
I think the easiest way to point to the futility of this law would be to find those individual consumers that are negatively affected by the law.

[Dave Ridley]

finding customers should be doable....

[Dave Ridley]

With all due respect, Denis only seems to feel that something is worthwhile if it is unimportant. I think RealID is a far more important issue, with much more dire implications.

Am I the only one who feels like we are in Nazi Germany, debating their business license regulations instead of focusing on the war and genocide?   "Oh that Hitler! He's out of control with this new seatbelt law. Let's march on Berlin and demand vehicle inspections every two years instead of every one! Maybe I could tease the Gestapo with some effective civil disobedience directed against the no-smoking law."  Jesus Christ!

Timing may make our decision for us.   If all stays on schedule, and all threats are delivered upon, washington will begin treating nh residents like second class citizens starting may 11, seven months before the loan law goes into effect.  But the loan thing could still be the one...we'll see.   Also the FIJA guys contacted me to tell me I probably couldn't trigger an arrest even if I went INSIDE a courthouse to hand out leaflets LOL.   So for now the best civil dis options available to us really do appear to be

1) Outlaw lending
2) Outlaw travelling

caleb's right about real id being bigger, but the lending issue we could be assured of having more of an impact on the perpetrators.  Virtually all of them would hear about it even if it didn't get much press.  Also remember, Concord is putting a few HUNDRED people out of jobs here, that is just a hideous thing and worse that real id if you're one of the unemployed.

[sandm000]

Dave this is a splendid idea.  The downside is that 37% APR yields $0.001 interest per day per dollar loaned.  I think that it could easily be shown that payday loaners won't make any money if they are limited to that sort of rate.

You could loan someone money to get some lunch, then have them pay you back with 1 full days interest.

[Caleb]

well, since the loans are short term, they won't make any money. Let's say someone takes out a $500 loan for two weeks. The interest amount would be limited to 1.42% for that two week period, which is only $7 for the two week period. It's hard to see how someone would be willing to take the risk of loaning $500 for only a $7 return. Plus, the proprietor would have to have amazing volume at that rate to make money, because he still has to pay his overhead and his employees. Let's say he needs $1000 per week just to break even, once you count payroll, rent, lights, etc. He'd have to loan out over 70,000 per week just to break even, and I don't know, but I doubt that most payroll places are doing that level of business. And that's just the break even point. I think the inevitable conclusion is that the payroll loan places won't be able to compete and will just go out of business.

What I don't understand is, why don't they just change their business model and charge a flat fee, that way they can avoid the whole "interest" thing. Banks do that. If you overdraft your account by even a single penny, your bank will charge you a $25 to $35 "fee". If that fee were to be calculated as interest, it would be incredibly usurious. But since it's a flat fee, the guvmint doesn't consider it interest.