Parking Tickets and the “Consent of the Governed”

[FTL_Ian]

If you went around claiming that aliens exist, that doesn't mean they do (nor that they do not...)
If you went around claming that 9/11 was a conspiracy, that doesn't mean it was (nor that it wasn't).
I pick those examples, because you've taken clear stands on the other side of the fence on both... so perhaps you can imagine yourself for a moment, in this example: Your claim that the City of Keene has no legal, legitimate stance as a valid entity with which to contract is in the same realm as that of aliens or 9/11 - in other words, unless you can produces FACTS, the dominant view will continue to rule the roost here. 

All of your points are predicated around the belief in the "city of Keene".  Like Santa Claus, if you claim something exists, the burden of proof is on you:

Factually, what is the "city of Keene"?

Your dislike of the actions of the City, or it's representatives or employees, doesn't make the entity invalid.  It's use of force is neither here nor there, and while it can be claimed that the use of force _should_ invalidate contracts, here in the real world, that's not always true.

Also, all of us are living in the "real world"... you just believe in fictions.  It's okay, Seth.  We've all been there.

[d_goddard]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

[FTL_Ian]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

I think it's funny that you're suggesting we are the childlike ones for not believing in the fantasy.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

You are correct.  Free Talk Live does not exist.  You cannot bequeath your fortune to Free Talk Live.  You could to me.

[srqrebel]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

These things all exist as concepts. So does Santa Claus. Neither the city of Keene, Santa Claus, or Free Talk Live are volitional beings.

Only volitional beings have inherent authority to enter into a contract. Volitional beings can authorize other volitional beings to act as their agents, and engage in contracts under their inherent authority. They can also establish conceptual, i.e. fictitious, entities to facilitate this. But the authority to enter into a contract must ultimately be derived from a volition being, or beings, other than the agents themselves -- otherwise it is fraud.

Free Talk Live, and all tangible and intangible property attributed to it, is ultimately owned by a volitional being. Any contracts "it" enters into via "its" agents are indeed valid, because those agents are ultimately acting upon the authority of an actual volitional being.

Fictitious entities do not have inherent authority, cannot own property by themselves, enter into contracts on their own volition, or even exist on their own. All of these require an actual, volitional being, or beings, who have inherent authority.

Please tell me, who are the volitional beings who own the fictitious entity called the city of Keene, from which it derives its authorization to enter into contracts?

[srqrebel]

Perhaps a 'picture' would help:

volitional entity (owner)> fictitious entity (Free Talk Live)> authorized agent>> valid contract <<volitional entity or its authorized agent

vs.

fictitious entity (City of Keene)> con-artists posing as agents>> fraudulent contract <<volitional entity or its authorized agent

[Caleb]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

I think it's funny that you're suggesting we are the childlike ones for not believing in the fantasy.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

You are correct.  Free Talk Live does not exist.  You cannot bequeath your fortune to Free Talk Live.  You could to me.

A little bit of a crazy argument, since, if I'm not mistaken, Denis does bequeath an allotted sum to FTL each month.

I think maybe what you mean is that FTL's existence is dependent upon your existence. It is a construct that, when all the masks are removed, is essentially you.

[srqrebel]

A little bit of a crazy argument, since, if I'm not mistaken, Denis does bequeath an allotted sum to FTL each month.

I think maybe what you mean is that FTL's existence is dependent upon your existence. It is a construct that, when all the masks are removed, is essentially you.

My understanding is that the FTL construct can continue to exist beyond Ian's existence -- as long as Ian, as the rightful owner, makes provisions for the tranfer of ownership.

...and its good to see that I am not the only one here who is aware that "bequeath" has more than one definition!

[John Edward Mercier]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

These things all exist as concepts. So does Santa Claus. Neither the city of Keene, Santa Claus, or Free Talk Live are volitional beings.

Only volitional beings have inherent authority to enter into a contract. Volitional beings can authorize other volitional beings to act as their agents, and engage in contracts under their inherent authority. They can also establish conceptual, i.e. fictitious, entities to facilitate this. But the authority to enter into a contract must ultimately be derived from a volition being, or beings, other than the agents themselves -- otherwise it is fraud.

Free Talk Live, and all tangible and intangible property attributed to it, is ultimately owned by a volitional being. Any contracts "it" enters into via "its" agents are indeed valid, because those agents are ultimately acting upon the authority of an actual volitional being.

Fictitious entities do not have inherent authority, cannot own property by themselves, enter into contracts on their own volition, or even exist on their own. All of these require an actual, volitional being, or beings, who have inherent authority.

Please tell me, who are the volitional beings who own the fictitious entity called the city of Keene, from which it derives its authorization to enter into contracts?

Per Charter... the residents of the City of Keene.
But the argument being futile.

To overcome force with debate... is to come to terms with that force. For Ian to state he does not believe in the existance of such an entity... means the entity can not direct force towards him. i.e. Boogey Man.

[David]

I think some of this stuff is beside the point. 
Kiss, keep it simple.  The gov't steals.  The foundation of gov't is taxes, licenses, fees, and fines, none of which is done without some form of threat.  Gov't run parking is based on the foundation of gov't theft.  Oppose the gov't theft. 

[d_goddard]

<<<< proud AMPer

You see my name at the bottom, just above Caleb's

[FTL_Ian]

<<<< proud AMPer

You see my name at the bottom, just above Caleb's

Denis is also among the few Free Keene Contributors.   

[SamIam]

Humor aside, I'll wager that dozens of legitimate contracts exist with one party being the "City of Keene", of which you benefit (or at least are affected by, let's not argue benefits/detriments/costs/etc at this point..)

While you may choose to not to recognize the legitimacy of said contracts, the rest of the world does, and this being the dominant paradigm of 'life in Keene', ie they are 'legal' (from which the word legitimate is derived) contracts.

Hence, your insistence in its' non-existence makes no difference

If you went around . . .
. . . .
. . . .  in other words, unless you can produces FACTS, the dominant view will continue to rule the roost here. 

Your dislike of the actions of the City, or it's representatives or employees, doesn't make the entity invalid.  It's use of force is neither here nor there, and while it can be claimed that the use of force _should_ invalidate contracts, here in the real world, that's not always true.

Seth,

Great News! This weekend, I got together with 500 friends and we voted on a few things. Congratulations, you are now part of the New Commonwealth of America. Trust me, the votes have been carefully counted by my friends 2 times now, and results are clearly valid. Unfortunately we can't tell you who voted because we need to protect the voters, since they are harming others through their actions; We wouldn't want them facing backlash would we?

There are a few rules, for your protection of course. The best part is, you get to send us $100/month to pay for the wonderful services that benefit you and your neighbors. Why just this week, we signed a $320,000 contract to study asphalt. Don't worry, it was a great deal, one of my friends owns the company, it was his idea, and he gave us a great price. We know the roads are a big concern to our citizens like you in the New Commonwealth of America, and that's why we're using your money to do great things that benefit everyone. This is a perfectly valid contract between us and the Asphalt company, so make sure you send you money in right away, so we don't have to take your house, leaving you out on the street.

That would be a shame, since we don't allow loitering in the New Commonwealth, we would have to relocate you, but you can look forward to a nice new career making lawn furniture for $80/month in pay including room and board! Again, we have perfectly valid contracts between the New Commonwealth and the companies we do business with, so rest assured, this is perfectly legitimate. You have 10 business days to contact me regarding payment.

Thanks again for joining the New Commonwealth of America, we look forward to serving you soon!

[d_goddard]

I think y'all are missing a subtle but fundamental point.
Seth and I agree with you that the State is immoral and that rule by simple democracy is unjust.

What we (or I, at least) are pointing out is that Ian's doing an amateurish, poor job of working this particular tactic.

[SethCohn]

Great News! This weekend, I got together with 500 friends and we voted on a few things.

If the things you voted were things you have some level of control over, you and 500 friends could do a lot of things.  Run a town, company, or even a virtual corporation with no 'real world' assets (Think Second Life, for an example.)

Congratulations, you are now part of the New Commonwealth of America.

This is where your "argument" breaks down:  500 people could in fact run a town meeting.  You couldn't form a "New Commonwealth of America", but you could vote to raise taxes, and other warrant articles at a town meeting with similar costs.

Trust me, the votes have been carefully counted by my friends 2 times now, and results are clearly valid. Unfortunately we can't tell you who voted because we need to protect the voters, since they are harming others through their actions; We wouldn't want them facing backlash would we?

Town meetings don't have roll call votes, so it's entirely plausible that while I'd know who attended (voter checklist), I wouldn't know who voted for or against any given article.

There are a few rules, for your protection of course. The best part is, you get to send us $100/month to pay for the wonderful services that benefit you and your neighbors.

Yup, About $5200 a year... sounds like property taxes to me.

Why just this week, we signed a $320,000 contract to study asphalt. Don't worry, it was a great deal, one of my friends owns the company, it was his idea, and he gave us a great price. We know the roads are a big concern to our citizens like you in the New Commonwealth of America, and that's why we're using your money to do great things that benefit everyone. This is a perfectly valid contract between us and the Asphalt company, so make sure you send you money in right away, so we don't have to take your house, leaving you out on the street.

Well, bidding requirements aside, since the road agent is certainly authorized to spend the budgeted money, which I'll assume was in the budget you and your 500 passed, hopefully you're getting a great price...

That would be a shame, since we don't allow loitering in the New Commonwealth, we would have to relocate you, but you can look forward to a nice new career making lawn furniture for $80/month in pay including room and board! Again, we have perfectly valid contracts between the New Commonwealth and the companies we do business with, so rest assured, this is perfectly legitimate. You have 10 business days to contact me regarding payment.

Since you aren't going to be arrested for failure to pay property taxes, let's assume the above is for failure to 'relocate' once the property taxes go deliquent long enough that the town has to file a lien... and eventually sell the property.  How many years would that be?  Quite a few...

10 days?  That's the FIRST piece that wasn't realistic..... could happen, but unlikely.

Thanks again for joining the New Commonwealth of America,
living in any town in New Hampshire,
we look forward to serving you soon!

FTFY.

You might not like the reality of this, but all you did was describe the current state of affairs.
If you'd like to _change_ it, fine, but denial of the reality that exists now isn't the way to do so.

[SethCohn]

I think y'all are missing a subtle but fundamental point.
Seth and I agree with you that the State is immoral and that rule by simple democracy is unjust.

What we (or I, at least) are pointing out is that Ian's doing an amateurish, poor job of working this particular tactic.

Actually, what I'm saying is even more than the above:  Denial of the current reality not only isn't going to change it, but it makes it all the harder for those of us who DO accept the reality of it and wish to work to change it, because you poison the well for the rest of us.  "Oh those folks are just crazy folks who don't accept any laws, want legal child porn/drugs/no taxes/blah blah (whichever memes about libertarians/anarchists/etc they want to spread to discredit valid points)  Why, did you hear that wacko who denied that the City of Keene existed so he didn't need to pay a parking ticket?"

If you are going to make arguments, don't make ones that are so absurd that even your friends won't take seriously, let alone the people you are trying to reason with... (and if you don't believe in reason, stop poisoning the well for the rest of us...)