Parking Tickets and the “Consent of the Governed”

[J’raxis 270145]

I think y'all are missing a subtle but fundamental point.
Seth and I agree with you that the State is immoral and that rule by simple democracy is unjust.

What we (or I, at least) are pointing out is that Ian's doing an amateurish, poor job of working this particular tactic.

This is what I was trying to point out, too. The moral argument against the State is sound, and pretty much irrefutable. Trying to wrap it in a legal argument just gives them an easy target to poke holes in (they're the law experts—remember, they invented it), especially one that's probably already been tried before.

[KBCraig]

Denis is gone?

[FTL_Ian]

This is what I was trying to point out, too. The moral argument against the State is sound, and pretty much irrefutable. Trying to wrap it in a legal argument just gives them an easy target to poke holes in (they're the law experts—remember, they invented it), especially one that's probably already been tried before.

My viewpoint is 100% moral, 0% legal.

[David]

Denis is gone?

Passion in a persons beliefs are important for the sanity of ones soul.  Unfortunately it also can be frustrating, and can split friendships.  He will be missed. 

[David]

Ians' expiriment is interesting.  Most people believe in the consent of the governed fantasy.  If he can effectively and publicly prove that it is not, then he can more easily knock down the 'consent of the governed' straw man that the statists use.  I'm uncertain that it is very effective beyond that. 
This quote bears repeating.

This entire discussion reminds me of so many tax-protester arguments. People can come up with the most wonderfully complex, and perhaps in some cases even correct, interpretations of tax law, without even considering that the venue in which they plan to present the argument is run by the State and the person whom they wish to convince of their correctness is an agent of the State.

Ian, no matter how good your argument is, do you expect to get anywhere presenting it to a parking bureaucrat, a police officer, or a judge, all of whom ultimately get their paycheque from the State? If not, then what is the point of the back-and-forth between you and the agents of the State? Why not simply ignore their threats and demands, based upon your argument, and be done with it?

I think the back in forth communication is important between a resister and the gov't folks.  They cannot even consider possibly modifying their behavior if they don't know what you want them to do. 
After Lauren's licence arrest and the publicity surrounding it, I became painfully aware that I would not likely have the public support for my civ dis.  So I focused my efforts on the enforcement.  Ian is right, that most people hate being nickle and dimed by the gov't at the most inconvienient times.  This could have broad appeal in a way that my effort would not.  Maybe.  It requires a clear and simple to follow approach.  One that makes sence to the average person.  Of course we will never have the support of those afraid of the state and envious that we 'got away with it'. 

[FTL_Ian]

Denis is gone?

See this thread:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13545.0


I like Denis and hope he comes back.

[dalebert]

I like Denis and hope he comes back.

2nded. Will someone convey that to him? I doubt he's going to see it first-hand.

[TackleTheWorld]

You can see him here.

[KBCraig]

Denis is gone?

See this thread:
http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=13545.0


I like Denis and hope he comes back.

I saw the thread where he left after I finished this one (I was behind, and catching up).

I will seen Denis regularly over on nhliberty.org; he'll be missed here, but we all have to cut back now and then.

[dalebert]

You can see him here.

I don't wanna see that. That's political. 

I just wanna see Denis at social stuph like Taproom Tuesday and Porcfest. 

[Tom Sawyer]

RUSH fan... MassCann Rally... PorcFest... his knowledge and take of things cultural... all very 

Lots o' hard work, it's spring time... time to make families and selves happy and stuph.

The revolution continues, even when we aren't looking.

[SamIam]

And as for my own actions, I pick fights I can win, not fight windmills.

Then Seth, you playing to loose. If everyone was like you and only took on challenges they were sure they could "win", what ever that means, what sort of world would it be? How many would never realized their dreams if they played it safe and went with something familiar to them?

[mackler]

Ian, you (and others trying to work the same argument) are like toddlers who believe a thing does not exist if they cannot see and touch it.

The "City of Keene" is a corporation. It has no physical form, though its presence is recorded on various pieces of paper and in computer files.

Does "Free Talk Live" exist?
I don't think it does. I mean, there is a bunch of recording equipment and a studio and some computers and two guys, but there's no "Free Talk Live!"

Does God exist?

[David]

A factoid to consider.  Fron BusinessNH, a magazine with an obvious focus. 
I forget the dates, but I assume it is for the year in 2007, Keene has 1686 parking spots, with revenue of 925,000 dollars.  I'd love to know how much the revenue is off the parking tickets.  I bet it alone pays for the meter maid. 

[John Edward Mercier]

I think some of this stuff is beside the point. 
Kiss, keep it simple.  The gov't steals.  The foundation of gov't is taxes, licenses, fees, and fines, none of which is done without some form of threat.  Gov't run parking is based on the foundation of gov't theft.  Oppose the gov't theft. 

Sorry to come back so late...
This would be an absurd argument. It would suggest that Ian knew, or highly suspected, the property for which he had made an implied contract to 'rent'... was stolen. No morality argument can be made on these grounds. In fact, Ian would then be making a statetment to the court of criminal action.

Parking tickets have a long history in NH. There were cases argued that the landlord, not having posted a sign to notify the renter of the fine for contractual violation, was entitled to only the cost of the rental and recovery charges... hence parking tickets being such small sums.

The legal question would be... is the space being rented?
If I park a bicycle there without feeding the meter, would I be ticketed? If not, then the implied contract is flawed. As its implication is not common.