LIBERTY DOLLAR ALERT - Bernard's latest e-mail

[Little Owl]

I don't think #1 nor #4 really matter.

They most certainly do.  A central theme of the government's case is that people can be confused into believing that LDs are U.S. backed currency.  Calling them "dollars", using the $ sign and the similitude to some U.S. coins all bear on the merit of this claim.

#2 and #3 is what led to the current economic system..

I'm not defending the existing U.S. monetary policy.  My personal opinion is that Wilson's establishment of the Federal Reserve was an act of treason.  Doubly hypocritical is that having recognized this mistake he failed to act.  But these facts do not excuse similar aspects of the Liberty Dollar, especially when LD holds itself on the moral high ground.

[John Edward Mercier]

Disney 'dollars' are called dollars, and poker chips are denominated in USD and I don't confuse them with US currency... Canadian currency appears much like US currency... and I don't confuse the two (couldn't speak for the public as a whole on this).

#2 and #3 didn't have to do with the Federal Reserve System. Congress has direct control over the number of dollars within the system through the US Comptroller of the Currency. It also violated the gold standard during the initial establishment of it. Hamilton was aghast that Congress would spend more than incoming revenue resulting in capital drawdown... that was over 100 years prior to the FRS.

[Little Owl]

Disney 'dollars' are called dollars, and poker chips are denominated in USD and I don't confuse them with US currency... Canadian currency appears much like US currency... and I don't confuse the two (couldn't speak for the public as a whole on this)

These are specious examples.  There is no realistic chance that an ordinary person would think that Disney Dollars are U.S. backed (although I'm sure its happened before).  Canadian currency (paper, that is) does not resemble U.S. notes.

I would not confuse Liberty Dollars with U.S. Dollars, but I used to collect coins and so I know what U.S. currency (past and present) looks like.  Its not beyond the realm of plausibility that someone might get confused.  The U.S. mint has changed its coins/notes more in the past 10 years than they did in the 70 years before then, so people are getting accustomed to weird looking stuff coming from the mint.  They're also greatly expanding their precious metal offerings.  (I want a buffalo gold coin!)

I've handed legitimate U.S. notes to cashiers who questioned their authenticity because they were so new.

[mackler]

I used to mistake Federal Reserve Notes for real money all the time.

[Pat McCotter]

I used to mistake Federal Reserve Notes for real money all the time.

+1

[John Edward Mercier]

Banknotes. They're a type of warehouse receipt that Congress used to replace all other banknotes, while the US was on the Gold Standard.

And Little Owl... because someone might confuse it with US-backed coinage isn't the real problem. Its specifically because NORFED was claiming it had US-backing by the claim it was 'constitutional money'.
That shows intent.

[Ron Helwig]

In short, this is where I believe LD blew it:

1) Denomination in dollars - Biggest mistake of all!

2) Warehouse receipts not redeemable by bearer on demand (rumor I've heard.  Can anybody verify this?)

3) Value basis on more than one metal

4) Similitude to historical U.S. coinage.  (Yes, a novice could think these resembled mid-20th century US coinage)

1) I believe they could have implemented it differently, putting more emphasis on the voluntary nature of the denomination. However, it does help tremendously with making it usable in trade in the current system. It was always intended to be a temporary measure, being eliminated once the FRN system faded away.

2) I have redeemed the warehouse receipts more than once. I never had any problem doing so, other than the time it took, until the first fed raid. Once the feds got involved, the redeemability went out the window because the stuff backing the receipts was being held by the jackbooted thugs.

3) Each warehouse receipt is clearly marked as to the single metal backing it. The function determining the valuation of silver is completely separate from the ones for gold and copper. They are separate currencies - the confusion comes from their being issued by the same organization, and the branding being similar.

4) This charge the feds are bringing is pretty specious, as there are other bullion pieces that more closely resemble U.S. Mint coins.

I do think they should have avoided the "Trust in God" crap. It never should have been on U.S. coins, and it doesn't belong on a commodity piece either. Something like "Trust in silver" would have been much more accurate.

[FreelanceFreedomFighter]

I guess we'll all have to guy generic silver rounds with a $3 markup instead of a $32 mark up.

The best price that you can get from Norfed/LD directly is ~$17/coin... IF you buy 256 at once!

There are a number of places online that will sell you American Silver Eagles (.999, 1 oz round, bullion quality) for ~$17 each. I've heard of a couple of dealers in NH & MA that will sell ASEs for spot + $3-5 depending on quantity (and not that much quantity to get the lower markup).

I agree with KBCraig that, as an investment, LDs are pretty poor.

One of the reasons that "other" mints don't get in trouble for making bullion that even more closely resembles U.S. coinage (past or present) is marketing. Norfed & LDs were always marketed as a form of currency. Other "mints" market their coinage as "collectors items" or "novelties". You can walk into just about any major bank in Europe and purchase bullion that is stamped and graded. Gold, Silver, etc... It isn't denominated, just stamped with purity, the company that made it, and the amount (in grams). Those are interesting "collectors items" for some folks. The claim, by Norfed/LD, is that their coinage will go to ebay and end up being more valuable doesn't help their cause either, IMNSHO. Even tho, I think the Ron Paul LDs are interesting collectors items... just for historical purposes.

For pure investment in bullion precious metals, there are plenty of places around to get them at a reasonable price over spot. Like any other investment, you're placing a wager on what the future is going to be. While I'm not opposed to some precious metals hedging, there are lots of folks that believe that having loads of these coins around will help them in the "inevitable TEOTWAWKI" scenario. Unfortunately, if those scenarios come to pass, I'd wager that folks won't be very interested in something that they can't eat or use for their survival... and barter will be able to be carried out with many other "commodities"... even personal labor/help as well as various "goods".

[jaqeboy]

Is it just me or is this story not getting as much play as it should?  I didn't even hear about it myself until today !

I agree, Dave. This should be huge,... -- AND -- Kevin is in jail! ...He should be getting a donation of $20 from everyone just to help him get representation. I don't know of a Chip-in yet, but if I learn of one, I'll post it....

By the way, can anyone confirm if Kevin is still in the can or not? Also, if there is a Chip-in for his legal fees? This is the immediate issue. The theories are interesting, but Kevin's freedom is kind of an immediate thing - can anyone who has been inside attest to the helplessness of the incarcerated and the hope that they have that someone on the outside cares and is willing to help?

[John Edward Mercier]

1) Not sure
2) Where would the Chip-In go? Does he have a private attorney, or a court-appointed one?

[jaqeboy]

1) Not sure
2) Where would the Chip-In go? Does he have a private attorney, or a court-appointed one?

Anyone know?

[RevDebbie]

I don't know if Kevin has an attorney but, according to the latest alert on the Liberty Dollar website, he is still in jail and you can write or send him a money order using the address and info from this alert:

"Currently: Bernard, Sarah and Rachelle are out on Appearance Bond and no initial court date has been set in North Carolina, but it won't be long. Kevin Innes is being held as he is a Canadian citizen and considered a flight risk. While, regretfully Sarah has lost her job when the FBI picked her up at work, Kevin's fate is worse as he may be held till December due to the immigration issue. His initial court date is July 6 but it may be months before he is out. You can help/write/send money order made out to Kevin at:

William K. Innes PID 377054
PO Box 31427
Charlotte NC 28231
Money order must include: Birth date Sept-3-1955 and PID 377054
Remember all mail is read.
Visitation is on Saturday in Charlotte."

[EthanLeeVita]

Maybe there isn't a chip-in and someone needs to create it themselves?

[Little Owl]

I visited the LD main page today and was surprised to learn that they're now selling silver Libertys based on silver spot instead of the ridiculous $10/$20/$50 fictitious "value".  Bernard finally figured out what the rest of us knew for a few years now.  (It still looked like they wanted $500 for $240 worth of gold though).

When did this change take place?  Are these orders anybody can place, or do you have to be part of the organization?

[RevDebbie]

Anyone can order Liberty Dollars.  You don't have to be a member of the organization to buy them.  Place your orders and pay online here:

http://www.silverlibertymarketing.com/catalog/

As for the new pricing, read here to learn when it was instituted:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/pr_nl/02_23_2009.htm