Menno's Grand Plan Finally Unveiled

[Caleb]

Well.  That must suck!

 

[Caleb]

Denis deleted them.

for real? if a person deletes their post, will all the replies to it be deleted too?

[dalebert]

Denis deleted them.

for real? if a person deletes their post, will all the replies to it be deleted too?

That was a joke, because it seems someone deleted a post of Denis. I was jokingly implying revenge deletions. 

[Caleb]

ok, sorry for being humorless. i'm not exactly good with these computer thingies, and i've noticed that my post count has gone down, so somewhere along the way i lost about 4 posts, (god only knows which ones they were, and truth be told i don't care) but i don't think kat erased them, and i know i didn't, and i don't think hollywood did ... so  it's possible there's a glitch somewhere.

btw, Denis erased his own post, dale. he's frustrated, i'm sure, right now with the attitudes towards political activism, and as he was always one of the politicos who tried to reach across the aisle and be supportive of non-political methods, i imagine he probably also feels a little betrayed. i profoundly disagree with his methods, and feel sad that 20 years from now he's going to be no closer than he is now. but he is a good person. and all the admins on this board, and the board owner herself, know that. no one would treat him that way.

[KBCraig]

i profoundly disagree with his methods, and feel sad that 20 years from now he's going to be no closer than he is now.

A lot can change in a few years, and a person's outlook can change quickly. Last year, Friday was a big-time politico in LPNH. Three years ago the Kannings were still registered voters willing to work within the system. And I seem to recall a "Caleb for Congress" campaign in 2006. 

[srqrebel]

i profoundly disagree with his methods, and feel sad that 20 years from now he's going to be no closer than he is now.

A lot can change in a few years, and a person's outlook can change quickly. Last year, Friday was a big-time politico in LPNH. Three years ago the Kannings were still registered voters willing to work within the system. And I seem to recall a "Caleb for Congress" campaign in 2006. 

Interesting observation, KB.  Add me to that list -- I actually went from installing a 4x8 Ron Paul sign on the back of my work trailer, and twice donating $100 to his campaign, to going completely outside-the-system and deliberately abstaining from voting in the NH primary, literally in a span of two months.

Can anyone come up with a list of NH freedom activists who have migrated, or are migrating, from being strictly outside-the-system activists, to participating in politics?

Perhaps the "in-crowd" needs a better marketing strategy

[dalebert]

Can anyone come up with a list of NH freedom activists who have migrated, or are migrating, from being strictly outside-the-system activists, to participating in politics?

Add me to the list. My enlightenment happened during the Ron Paul campaign as well, and was quite rapid.

[J’raxis 270145]

i profoundly disagree with his methods, and feel sad that 20 years from now he's going to be no closer than he is now.

Are you saying that in twenty years we'll still have a State around, just the same as it is now, despite not only the political work going on, but also the nonpolitical work people such as Dale, Menno, the Kannings, and so on, are doing?

Or, if you think that the State will have been significantly reduced or even eliminated by 2028, that anyone will even care if the political side of the Free State Project wasn't the successful side?

[Caleb]

Are you saying that in twenty years we'll still have a State around, just the same as it is now, despite not only the political work going on, but also the nonpolitical work people such as Dale, Menno, the Kannings, and so on, are doing?

Of course not. I think it will be much worse by then.

Freedom is one of those words that is starting to make me cringe when I hear it. Not because it's a bad concept, but because so often the way we think of it shows just how much the idea has become intertwined with the same thinking that causes us to lose our freedom. I've been trying to put my thoughts about this in order, but am still working on that, so don't expect the most coherent development yet.

what i want to show is that freedom isn't a goal that you strive for. i mean think about it. if freedom was a goal, what would you do once you achieved it?  freedom just is. you are free, whether you realize it or not. so these things that enslave us are the responses of people who make free choices. bad choices, yes. and when i say "some people" i mean just about everybody. but to break out of that, to understand your freedom in any real fashion (intellectionally, emotionally, spiritually,) you have to let go of the instinctual desire to control. it isn't enough to grasp these concepts with your mind, you must convince yourself to let go of the intense instinctual desire to maintain control, and when enough people do that, we will have a moral society. by moral,  i mean a society where people don't harm each other, not a puritanical society. but i don't know that there's really any coherent program for accomplishing that;  i think individuals can free themselves from the damaging thoughts that create the state. i don't think society as a whole can. i think it is going to have to be an evolutionary development.

that doesn't mean that these things that people do are useless. every evolutionary development proceeds in steps. that's why i liked menno's quote that i stole. it reminded me of what Gandhi said, something along the lines that "whatever you do is insignificant, but it is crucial that you do it." I stole Menno's line, "Absolutely critical, though minor." I like the phrase, because it's how I see what I am doing.

[J’raxis 270145]

Then I suppose what I am striving for is not "freedom" itself, but to convince others to let go of that desire to maintain control. To most people, the term freedom serves as nice shorthand for describing the moral society of which you speak.

[KBCraig]

Then I suppose what I am striving for is not "freedom" itself, but to convince others to let go of that desire to maintain control. To most people, the term freedom serves as nice shorthand for describing the moral society of which you speak.

Thank you. I agree with this. We will always have those who have a deep inner "need" for rules, laws, and governments. In a vacuum, those lovers of government naturally take control and do whatever they want. This is why I say that anarchy might be preferable, but government is inevitable. (I hope to be proved wrong on the latter point.)

Those people with such a fetish for rules, laws, and "order" can be held at bay if the rules are strong and orderly; if the rules they love so much restrict them from imposing further rules, Liberty lovers can enjoy at least a temporary respite.

I wish we could wave a magic wand and make government go away, and convince everyone that it didn't need to be replaced. The first is hard; the latter is probably impossible.

[J’raxis 270145]

I believe that if we create sufficiently successful voluntary institutions to replace the various services the State provides, we can indeed make the State go away.

A semantic point, but important nonetheless: It's not the government we need to abolish, but the State. A government is just the apparatus by which the State rules its subjects, and voluntary organizations that people agree to join and obey (in return for some benefit) could be called a government of some sort.

[jaqeboy]

I believe that if we create sufficiently successful voluntary institutions to replace the various services the State provides, we can indeed make the State go away.

Sounds like we need an exposition to discuss and design the alternatives... Maybe we could get a group together and meet up at PorcFest.. Yeah, I like this idea!

[Ron Helwig]

I believe that if we create sufficiently successful voluntary institutions to replace the various services the State provides, we can indeed make the State go away.

Sounds like we need an exposition to discuss and design the alternatives... Maybe we could get a group together and meet up at PorcFest.. Yeah, I like this idea!

That's a great idea, some sort of alternatives exposition maybe. 

[ AltExpo.org ]

[jaqeboy]

I believe that if we create sufficiently successful voluntary institutions to replace the various services the State provides, we can indeed make the State go away.

Sounds like we need an exposition to discuss and design the alternatives... Maybe we could get a group together and meet up at PorcFest.. Yeah, I like this idea!

That's a great idea, some sort of alternatives exposition maybe. 

[ AltExpo.org ]

What?!? You mean somebody already thought of this!!! What a cool idea! How do I join???

Looks like their site is a little out-of-date -- are they really going to be at the Keene Freedom Fest and at PorcFest and maybe at Burning Porcupine??