Might God damn America?

[John]

Did Thomas Jefferson, our 3rd President, think that "God" might "damn" America?
These are Thomas Jefferson's words as written in the Jefferson Memorial, Washington D.C.:

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
Thomas Jefferson

[srqrebel]

I know of no such thing as 'God'... perhaps Jefferson was privy to a body of evidence that has somehow entirely escaped me.

It certainly has been my observation over the years that justice has a strange way of asserting itself, even if it is stalled for awhile by opposing forces.  It seems nature incessantly seeks balance, and justice is essentially the restoration of balance.

Jefferson's statement might be far more accurate if one substituted the word 'government' for 'country', regardless of whether one accepts the 'God' concept.

[malcolm]

I know of no such thing as 'God'... perhaps Jefferson was privy to a body of evidence that has somehow entirely escaped me.

It certainly has been my observation over the years that justice has a strange way of asserting itself, even if it is stalled for awhile by opposing forces.  It seems nature incessantly seeks balance, and justice is essentially the restoration of balance.

Jefferson's statement might be far more accurate if one substituted the word 'government' for 'country', regardless of whether one accepts the 'God' concept.

I have a feeling that the country as a whole is in for a spanking (not merely the government).

A funny comic I saw yesterday featured a guru on the mountain speaking to a man in a suit.  The guru said "Mother nature invented recessions to correct the opinions of pundits."

Morality and prudence (which have largely been abandoned by our effete, hedonistic populace) are not religious concepts.  They are fundamental principles (social software, if you prefer) which help the moral adherent avoid trouble.  I think it was Aeschylus who said "The gods first flatter those they intend to destroy."

[John]

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
Thomas Jefferson

[watershed]

I often wonder if strong faithful worshipers, when they get to "Heaven", are told by St Peter that they cannot stay because they have bathed in the glory of God so much that they left nothing for anyone else and that they had waisted alot of time for prayer...so much that others had to work harder to compensate for their sloth and for that they never fulfilled their potential, and for that you are then sent to hell.

I do hope that if there is Heaven, then I will be told that I have walked amongst thieves and liars and have never fallen to such an ill state, that I have learned as much as I could to survive and nurture, and that I have passed my wisdoms along the way...and for that you may stay..............Then Start REVOLUTION! ha ha

[JohninRI]

I have been trolling here regularly for quite a while, and I love the enthusiasm and energy that all of you seem to have, but there seems to be a re-occurring theme that troubles me about our future.  While there are many who profess to not have a belief in a Creator, there are very few that openly profess to have one.  Is this because there really is no one here with that belief, or is it because you are ashamed of your belief and keep it to yourselves?

A belief in a Creator is not the same thing at all as religion.  I believe in a Creator and I believe in the Scriptures much the same way as past civilizations told and passed down stories which were all based in truth.  The key is always in the interpretation.

Now let me get to my point.  It is a very simple thing to prove the existence of a Creator based upon today's science.  Let's start with evolution.  Species evolve through accident and necessity.  A trait accidentally appears in the course of evolution,  but that trait takes hold in the species only if it becomes necessary to some benefit in the species through natural selection. 

Man could not have evolved through natural selection but could only have been created specifically and deliberately.  For proof of this I give you man's brain.  Man's brain defies evolution in that, even at this stage in man's evolution he only uses less than 10% of it.  Therefore, there is not now and never was a necessity for its size and capacity, at least not yet.  So how and why did it become the dominant trait for all manki9nd through the current law of evolution?

As for God damning America,  I think that everything is going along exactly as planned.

http://freewebs.com/spiderbiterevelations/

[malcolm]

As for God damning America,  I think that everything is going along exactly as planned.

http://freewebs.com/spiderbiterevelations/

Yes!  Just as planned.  Look for Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

Just kidding.  I don't believe in the supernatural.  It's bunk.

[David]

I am a Deist, as Jefferson was, not an atheist.  I believe in God.  The trouble is comming, more from the misbehavior and ignorance of men and women, than because God is going to hurt us.  He left his commands, has sent his teachers, the rest is up to us as individuals. 

[Tom Sawyer]

I have been trolling here regularly for quite a while, and I love the enthusiasm and energy that all of you seem to have, but there seems to be a re-occurring theme that troubles me about our future.  While there are many who profess to not have a belief in a Creator, there are very few that openly profess to have one.  Is this because there really is no one here with that belief, or is it because you are ashamed of your belief and keep it to yourselves?

If you have been hanging out here awhile you should be aware that several principal activists here are Christians.

[JohninRI]

Yes!  Just as planned.  Look for Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

I think the whole story is kind of incredible myself, but it is what it is.

I am a Deist, as Jefferson was, not an atheist.  I believe in God.  The trouble is comming, more from the misbehavior and ignorance of men and women, than because God is going to hurt us.  He left his commands, has sent his teachers, the rest is up to us as individuals.

Why would he leave his commands, or send his teachers?  For what purpose?  Once you begin to see that re-incarnation is continuous, then it becomes less and less important the length of ones life and more about the quality and content.  As for being afraid of the Creator; how many times were you sent to bed early as punishment for something or other?  Since he knows that ending this life is only the beginning of the next, it is exactly the same thing except for the loss by those left behind.

If you have been hanging out here awhile you should be aware that several principal activists here are Christians.

I know that, but it seems that whenever conversations about belief in a Creator come up there is very little from one side.  I can understand that not many of us want to be associated with religion the way it is but we have to defend our beliefs as vigorously about the Creator as about earthly government.  And I don't see that much.

[malcolm]

Yes!  Just as planned.  Look for Gozer the Traveler. He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!

I think the whole story is kind of incredible myself, but it is what it is.

Yeah.  It was just a joke.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087332/quotes

[Dave Ridley]

plz digg my video on the obama wright "scandal" (is this really what passes for a scandal these days?)

http://digg.com/political_opinion/America_s_take_on_Obama_Wright_is_Bass_Ackwards

[srqrebel]

...it seems that whenever conversations about belief in a Creator come up there is very little from one side.  I can understand that not many of us want to be associated with religion the way it is but we have to defend our beliefs as vigorously about the Creator as about earthly government.  And I don't see that much.

Usually when the subject of the supernatural, in any form, gets broached on this forum, it is only in passing.  I do not see "believers" being any more muted on the subject than "unbelievers".  It does appear to me that there are a great deal more unbelievers in the freedom movement than believers -- I have my own hypothesis as to why, but I'll leave that for another day.

I think both "believers" and "unbelievers" avoid these kinds of discussions both out of respect for each individual's inherent right to formulate and hold his own beliefs, without having to face antagonism from others, as well as the mutual understanding that such discussions tend to go nowhere.

Why do you feel the need to "vigorously defend" your belief in a Creator, when that belief has not even been directly challenged?  What I previously posted here was simply a brief statement of my own perspective -- not a challenge of yours.  It may not integrate well with your perspective, but I left that for you to decide

If you think you must challenge my beliefs, I am fully prepared to deliver a withering blow to yours -- but only in a thread that is specifically for the purpose of discussing that subject.

I don't, however, see any need whatsoever to open that can of worms.

[Ron Helwig]

Now let me get to my point. It is a very simple thing to prove the existence of a Creator based upon today's science.

A long time ago it was definitively proven that you cannot either prove or disprove the existence of God. Trying to prove either existence or non-existence is a fool's game. (And feel free to take that as me calling you a fool. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. We're all foolish every now and then.)

A trait accidentally appears in the course of evolution, but that trait takes hold in the species only if it becomes necessary to some benefit in the species through natural selection.

Not true. For example a trait can take hold because a related trait is useful. Genetics is very messy. You can tweak a gene that is responsible for eye color and end up affecting something totally different, like the ability to produce cholesterol.

BTW, you don't need to put two spaces between sentences. In fact, browsers are supposed to treat multiple spaces as a single space. The whole double space thing is a throwback to ancient typewriter technology.

[JohninRI]

A long time ago it was definitively proven that you cannot either prove or disprove the existence of God. Trying to prove either existence or non-existence is a fool's game. (And feel free to take that as me calling you a fool. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. We're all foolish every now and then.)

I don't take it as a bad thing.  I feel very foolish at times.

Not true. For example a trait can take hold because a related trait is useful.

Isn't "useful" and "necessary to some benefit in the specie" roughly the same thing?

I don't, however, see any need whatsoever to open that can of worms.

You're right srqrebel.  I'm sorry.  Can I ask you a question though? You said, "I know of no such thing as 'God'... perhaps Jefferson was privy to a body of evidence that has somehow entirely escaped me."  Don't you think that the statement was somewhat condescending of Jefferson's belief.  I did.