Might God damn America?

[Raineyrocks]

Thank you very much for explaining some things there that I didn't understand.  I'm still not sure that I agree but I'm going to print your reply out and think about the things you wrote and then possibly reply again.

Thanks!

[srqrebel]

Plus ... there just isn't much use trying to waste my precious time on all you hellbound heathen. You've reserved your bed in hell by rejecting your maker, and now you can lie in it ...   

Good one, Caleb!

[srqrebel]

...Can I ask you a question though? You said, "I know of no such thing as 'God'... perhaps Jefferson was privy to a body of evidence that has somehow entirely escaped me."  Don't you think that the statement was somewhat condescending of Jefferson's belief.  I did.

Oops... I just now read your response to my post. Sorry for not replying sooner.

That statement, like most of my statements, was a statement of pure objective fact.  The intent was not to be condescending, but to give the objective reader pause, and trigger logical thought, while leaving him to draw his own conclusions.  Hence, the only way that statement could even appear condescending is if the reader recognizes my statement, and its inferences, as having solid factual basis.

On the other hand, if the reader believes that atheism is borne out of ignorance of the facts, then the statement would not bear disrespect toward Jefferson at all.

At the same time, I also strive to maintain a consistently open mind, including the very real though highly unlikely possibility that there is an entire body of knowledge that has escaped me, but not certain others.  I consider it highly unlikely because every time I get challenged on my beliefs by someone who just cannot bear the thought of his fellow man being atheist, it is always a rehash of the same set of premises that I have long ago identified as being completely inconsistent with my own experience.  Hence, nothing new -- and it is pure folly to think that I can be swayed by premises that I have already carefully considered and identified as inaccurate.

My general approach is to present the facts within context of related (and often overlooked) facts, and let the audience decide.  Let the chips fall as they may

[grasshopper]

Well, reincarnation kind of lets us off the hook for doing bad things.  I guess if I murder, rape and pillage, I just don't have to worry about justice?
   I know in my sole (ya, blusey ha?) that I have one chance.  I do not have a second.  If I am to be reincarnated, that means Yashua is useless, I'll never be good enough to be resurected from the grave with him but I am sentenced to eternal seperation from Hyaway and Yashua?  No, God can not be that cruel, he says what he says, he means it also.

http://www.allaboutspirituality.org/arguments-against-reincarnation-faq.htm
   What are some arguments against reincarnation?

There are many arguments against reincarnation. There is simply no way to prove that the "past life experiences" that these people talk about are in fact true and not simply the developments of an active imagination. From a strictly logical viewpoint, since no one has ever died and come back to life (except our Lord, Jesus Christ) there is no empirical proof of the claims of those who say they have been reincarnated into this day and age.

Putting aside the lack of empirical data, the Bible provides many arguments against reincarnation. First of all it says, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). This makes it pretty clear that man only dies once and is not given a second chance at life or to redeem him/her self through reincarnation.

The next argument against reincarnation comes from Jesus Himself. It is found in the story of Lazarus. In this story, Lazarus is a poor beggar whose pleas for assistance are ignored by a rich man. When they both died, Lazarus went to heaven, but the rich man went to hell. The rich man begged for water from Lazarus, but without avail. Jesus tells the story: "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us'" (Luke 16: 25-26).

In this story, we see concrete images of the afterlife. It is a strong argument against reincarnation for the rich man reaps what he sowed immediately after death. There was no chance of redeeming himself through reincarnation. Likewise, the poor beggar, Lazarus gained comfort in the afterlife, a comfort he did not have while living. In addition, Jesus speaks of a gulf that is fixed which does not allow the souls to pass through from one life to the next.

Another argument against reincarnation lies in the story of the witch of Endor. In this Old Testament story, King Saul asks the witch to call up the spirit (or ghost) of Samuel because he desires to know the future since God is no longer speaking to Saul because of his disobedience. The witch, or medium, does as King Saul asks and the ghost of Samuel appears and says to Saul, "The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines" (1 Samuel 28:19).

This story provides not only one but two arguments against reincarnation. First, if reincarnation is a legitimate fact, the ghost or spirit of Samuel could not be "called up" as it would have already been reincarnated into another body. Second, Samuel tells Saul that both he and his sons would join him in the realm beyond death. He does not say that they would die and be given another chance at life. He says simply, "you and your sons will be with me."

Finally the Bible teaches that we are all sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And the penalty for sin is death, not reincarnation. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This verse from Romans 6:23 is the best argument against reincarnation. For Jesus died for our sins that we might have eternal life in heaven, not eternal reincarnation.

It is God's love for us that is the final proof and argument against reincarnation. God loved us so much that He sent His only Son to redeem and save the world. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3: 16-17). We are not saved through reincarnation, but saved through God's love, mercy, and grace.

[dalebert]

I'm not religious, but the subject of this thread alone makes God sound rather collectivist.

[John]

I'm not "religious" either, but I tremble (as did Jefferson) for america when I think that there might be a God who is Just.  Is this Rev. Jeremiah Wright saying things which that Thomas Jefferson did not?

How dare we put our false Gods above question?

Please be carefull!  Be VERY careful!

[dalebert]

I'm not Reverend Ryan. I have no interest in arguing your theism. You completely missed my point which was about collectivism. So do you believe in collectivism? In other words, is your God going to punish all the people within the arbitrary human-created boundaries that we call "America", for the actions of some of the people who identify as American? If so, then he's not just. If by "damning America", he is specifically and individually damning the perpetrators- government, politicians, and other minions of Statism, rather than their victims and those of us who do not identify as Amercian, then I'm all for it and in that respect I regret he's just a fantasy.

[Caleb]

Dale, I don't think John is a theist. As I recall, John was formerly an atheist, but as a gesture of goodwill decided to open himself to the possibility that there might possibly be a god that he just hasn't met yet.

He's also an all around great guy, and one of my favorite freestaters. I don't think collectivist is even close to describing him.

[watershed]

If i were born and raised without language and in social isolation, would i understand the concept of  one Creator?...yes

Would i know of Jesus?...no

What is the common spirituality of all men of all cultures? What is the common life thread?

Jesus was a man, not a life force, As was Gandhi and Buddha.

Yes...we can waste lots of time arguing ancient history and philosophy forever...so fuck it, lets just coexist and be merry!

[dalebert]

I don't think collectivist is even close to describing him.

Fair enough, but the thread itself still sounds awfully collectivist. Does anyone care to address that? - i.e. the damning of "America" as opposed to individuals who have "sinned". Sheesh, it's like pulling teeth trying to stay on topic here.

[JohninRI]

Hello Grasshopper,  I'm sorry for not answering but I just saw this.

Well, reincarnation kind of lets us off the hook for doing bad things.

I don't think so.  In Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments it says "...visiting the inequity of fathers upon sons, unto three generations and unto four, of them that hate me;"  Without re-incarnation what would the purpose of this exercise be?  It's kind of like grounding your kids, or not letting them ride their bike for a few days - or lives.

I know in my sole (ya, blusey ha?) that I have one chance.  I do not have a second.  If I am to be reincarnated, that means Yashua is useless, I'll never be good enough to be resurected from the grave with him but I am sentenced to eternal seperation from Hyaway and Yashua?  No, God can not be that cruel, he says what he says, he means it also.

You're absolutely right, He can't be that cruel and He isn't.

What are some arguments against reincarnation?

With one exception, all of the arguments and citations are from Saul the Roman, which I have previously stated was a usurper of the Messiah's message.  Its is Paul who closed the door on re-incarnation and it is Paul who is responsible for millions of deaths through war and bigotry and sexism. 

Now for the arguments for re-incarnation.

John 11:25-26 "YAHSHUA said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, even though he die, shall live again!  And noone who liveth again and believeth on Me, shall in anywise die unto times age-abiding.  Believeth thou this?"  The Messiah didn't say when this would take place, only that it would.  He also said that there were many things that He could not yet reveal because we weren't ready to grasp the concepts.

The Messiah always spoke in parables when He could have spoken to us plainly.  He did this because He wanted us to seek our own interpretations to His words.  He wants us to seek this truth in our hearts and in our own minds.  If He had spoken to us plainly then we wouldn't have to wrestle with the truths and we wouldn't need to use our free will.

Mathew 20:1-16 The parable of the workers in the field.  Many have said that this parable is about Christianity but it doesn't allow for any Christians who have turned away from Christianity and left the field during that day.  The only interpretation that is a perfect match is re-incarnation.  There are those who have been working the field since the beginning of the day and there are those who arrived in the last hour, but nobody has left yet.  This accounts for the population of the earth ever growing.

If you need more I can keep going.

It is God's love for us that is the final proof and argument against reincarnation. God loved us so much that He sent His only Son to redeem and save the world. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" (John 3: 16-17). We are not saved through reincarnation, but saved through God's love, mercy, and grace.

How is this final proof and argument against reincarnation; "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"?  Read your statement again and try to look through the dogma; the answer is right there.  I only ask that you open yourself up to other possibilities than those espoused through traditional Paulism.  Possibilities which the Messiah Himself left open to us when He chose to speak in parables and not plainly.

[John Galt]

Personal beliefs with respect to the supernatural, spiritual, religious, etc. are just that, PERSONAL beliefs.  If your personal beliefs and actions contain even one speck of a willingness to violate the Non-Aggression Principle I'd say you and yours should be repelled and destroyed.  We should be totally unwilling to allow any other person to initiate aggression or force or fraud against us.  Obviously this is discretionary and up to the individual since almost all of us "turn the other cheek" when it comes to most transgressions, but that doesn't make the transgressor any less guilty.  Quite the contrary, it gives the perpetrator a false sense of empowerment that encourages them to violate others again and again.  Some continue this path for great lengths of time committing very "small" crimes such as taking food from a garbage can.  Others are emboldened by their past "successful" crimes(or the grace and forgiveness of their victims) and move on to perpetrate greater offenses.  At the opposite end from the raiding of the trash heap is the erroneously empowered bureaucrat who has fooled the masses and who perpetrates horrific and terrifying acts against a multitude of victims.  Those who worship at the altar of these demons, these bureaucrats, these destroyers, are just as guilty, if not more so, that the perpetrators themselves.  Woe to those who come together in love and intimacy to conceive and bear the priceless fruit of the young, raising them with such care and attention, only to then cast them to the wolves and throw them to the demons by delivering them up to the service and destruction of the meglomaniacs bent on vile hatred and wanton murder and genocide across the country, globe, and universe.  Why have you done such unspeakable things?

So, "might god damn america?"  These are just words shouted to the sheeple to get them to shuffle this way and that as the wolves and hyenas pick and choose their meals.

I'm not buying into it.

John Galt

[grasshopper]

   Yup, that is my point.  God will do what God does, if 1 person is to be punished by a horrible disaster, or a commet smacking the earth, or to be nuked by forces let loose by Lucifer to punish a evil nation, like Isrial was around the year 500 or so, we ALL get it.  We as christians, and more importantly, those of us that follow Gods law and know Yashua, or Jesus and his guift of eternal life, we don't think of his judgement with fear but with a sence of urgancy, can we all guess what that urgancy is?
 About the reincarnation thing, at the top of my post, I was being sarcastic REALLL sarcastic.
  About this last post, you are correct, if we all had a personal relationship with the ONE that created us, the ONE that loves and heals and comforts and creates ect. ect..  we'd not have to worry about the Wolves and Polititions.  Now, when it comes to the point where we as Gods people have to stand up and ask God to protect us from scumb bag polititions.  In Nazi Germany, it was US who did the hammer and anvil thing.  God set em up and we hammered them.  Great sacrifices of Jews were made to Lucifer to empower the Nazis, it backfired but the damage was done. 
   We have to recognise the evil in this country and ask God to protect us from it or "them".  We will reap the punishment if we do not "see".  When people talk about seeing the light, it is God clarifying things for you to "see", to "get it".  I can't make people "get it" but you have to ask God yourself to have him show you.
  Punishment is for God to dole out.  If I am "in the way" when we get creamed, oh well, I am saved and will be fine.  I am worried about other people that don't "get it".  It will be a terrible waste to be destroied without faith, without faith, you're all done.
   What says you?

[Free libertarian]

...been awile since Sunday School for me.  So I raise the following questions in the interest of discussion not to offend anyone personally.  

If one must believe Jesus is a savior to get into heaven, where are all those souls that died before Jesus time?  I mean those "good people" who died prior to Jesus time.
Do they get a special exemption to get into heaven?  Also what about all those people who by uh "accident of birth" are ignorant of Jesus...do they go to hell? ...even if they have lead good lives by Christian standards?

 Is heaven an exclusive club, where the entry dues must be paid here on earth? If other intelligent beings
exist are they in heaven, if so is heaven segregated by species?  
Also once in hell, is there any way out...say for good behavior?  Does hell have one master and how does one being keep an eye on all those bad people?  Electronic Microchips? Shock collars?  I suppose waterboarding wouldn't work...could actually be seen as a reward due to the climatic conditions believed to exist in hell.

Concerning damning America...I don't think we need God to do that, man himself is doing a pretty good job of that.  

[JohninRI]

Hello John Galt,

Your passion is wonderful.  Your outrage is beautiful.  But without all of this decadence going on how could you have made a free will choice to oppose it?  Everything has a purpose, we may not understand the purpose because we do not have the same vantage point or the same level of understanding.   But some day we will.  The commandment says " thou shalt not kill."  But how many of us have never killed anything, or been an accomplice to a killing through indifference?  None of us.  We have all killed and we have all been accomplices.  If there is no higher plan and if there aren't things which we do not yet know, then God is unjust and a murderer and guilty of breaking His own commandment.