Buying Silver on a Weekly Basis

[Lloyd Danforth]

I will have some rounds for sale when I visit Porcfest in a couple of days

[margomaps]

I will have some rounds for sale when I visit Porcfest in a couple of days

Why are you selling them?  Need some FRN's, eh?   

[error]

Oh yeah, I'm bringing a whole stack of silver rounds to PorcFest to buy FRNs with.

[margomaps]

Looks like APMEX has added back their 1oz "generic"/variety rounds.  Not a bad price either -- around a dollar over spot.

I'm assuming these won't be in pristine condition like the uncirculated silver eagles I got, but if they're in quite good condition, that's not a bad way to go.

[41mag]

I've generally ordered the AMPEX generic silver.  They are not uncirculated condition, but are still very good when I've received mine.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

'm not sure what the benefit of the generic APMEX 1/2 ounce rounds are.  They seem to be more expensive than the silver eagles (which look a bit nicer IMO).

The smaller the quantity of silver, the higher minting, handling, shipping costs on that piece. This ends up in a higher per-piece premium. From a pure invenstment in precious metals stand point, buying a 10 ounce bar is cheaper than buying 10 1 ounce bars. The problem with paying attention to that is that investment pieces aren't intended to be circulated. Think of the 1/2 ounce as a "small bill" with the 10 ounce being a "bill" and the 100 ounce being a "large bill" and you'll see why the 1/2 ounce makes sense. A lot of places simply don't accept large denomination FRNs and the same could be said of silver traders.

You pay for convenience. Personally, when dealing in amounts smaller than one ounce, I like gram measurements (actually, I like them better in general). I've got some neat 10 gram and 20 gram pieces. 

[margomaps]

Ok, I already placed my APMEX order this time around, so anybody who's interested in joining a group buy in the near future (I'm thinking early July), let's start talking about it!   

[margomaps]

The smaller the quantity of silver, the higher minting, handling, shipping costs on that piece. This ends up in a higher per-piece premium. From a pure invenstment in precious metals stand point, buying a 10 ounce bar is cheaper than buying 10 1 ounce bars.

Yup, that all makes sense.  I was just wondering if there was a particular reason toowm preferred rounds and bars to coins like the silver eagle.  I guess I didn't mean to focus on the 1/2 ounce part as much as the "generic rounds" part.

The problem with paying attention to that is that investment pieces aren't intended to be circulated. Think of the 1/2 ounce as a "small bill" with the 10 ounce being a "bill" and the 100 ounce being a "large bill" and you'll see why the 1/2 ounce makes sense. A lot of places simply don't accept large denomination FRNs and the same could be said of silver traders.

True!  It did occur to me that it might be convenient to have some silver in smaller denominations.  At least for the purpose of trading for goods and services; for "investing" (hoarding?), I guess the larger sizes make a bit more sense.

You pay for convenience. Personally, when dealing in amounts smaller than one ounce, I like gram measurements (actually, I like them better in general). I've got some neat 10 gram and 20 gram pieces. 

Do you know who sells silver (or gold for that matter) in grams?  It looks like everything APMEX is selling is in ounces (or fractions or multiples thereof).  Although I haven't examined every nook and cranny of their website I suppose.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I was just wondering if there was a particular reason toowm preferred rounds and bars to coins like the silver eagle.

I can only speak for myself here, but I dislike the silver eagle because it's "endorsed" by the government. For me, the value of a silver round comes from the silver content not from the dollar value stamped on it. Of course, I'll HAPPILY trade a couple FRNs to someone who wants to rid themselves of sivler eagles, and I'll even pay face value for them. But with "generic" rounds or wedges (which I personally like better) there's no pretense or confusion that "the value I'm handing you comes from being useful, not from being government issued". FRN for FRN, I've personally found that generic rounds (for the sake of arguement wedges and rounds are both included in that term) tend to have a lower premium because they DON'T have numismatic value but if you're dealing with someone who cares ONLY for silver content, they're equal.

At least for the purpose of trading for goods and services; for "investing" (hoarding?)

You do know that the "capital" part of capitalism comes from the building and saving of wealth, not so much the spending part of it, right? Just a playful jab, but it's that hoarding that actually does create value as a currency too. As a pure logic exercise, think about the spending habits of "typical" Americans who don't think about their currencies. FRNs ONLY have value when gotten rid of (unless they have historic value to a collector) and they LOOSE value as they're "hoarded". A hard currency gains value because "hoarding" can't be countered with reissuance (inflation). Hoarding is, very seriously, deflation. It RAISES demand for your currency and makes the piece you have that much more valuable.

Also, not everyone buys gold or silver to hoard. Many people buy real estate to resell. Since silver and gold have value as commodities as well, the investor could be staking his money on the fluidity of the commodity. Both work the same way though - silver that's comsumed in retail products or gold put into electronics is deflation and raises the value that you posses. It's all a good thing because should silver be consumed to the point of extreme rarity some other viable trade medium would emerge, and you can bet your assets that when/if that happens you'll be given plenty of warning... To think, most people aren't even aware that they should be using silver - you're already ahead of the curve.

Do you know who sells silver (or gold for that matter) in grams?

I'll check to see who minted the pieces I have in silver. I've seen several of those pieces around in a theme (national flags of various designs). They're probably more common elsewhere in the world (which may make them more expensive to order outright) than the US but if you dig around a coin/bullion shop you'll probably find several. I know Ron was looking into 10g silver pieces for Shire Silver so he MAY know a mint that does them.

Gold in grams is a lot easier to find, since smaller amounts of gold are easy to handle and afford. Northwest Territorial Mint has 1, 5 and 10g gold wedges and I've seen them frequently enough in shops to know that other refineries and mints release them.

[margomaps]

I can only speak for myself here, but I dislike the silver eagle because it's "endorsed" by the government. For me, the value of a silver round comes from the silver content not from the dollar value stamped on it.

I hear 'ya.  Though I don't think the fact that the silver eagles are minted by a government agency necessarily makes them worse than non-government-minted coins or rounds.  Silver eagles are, IMO, very attractive pieces.  Rather more attractive than most other silver coins or rounds I've come across.  Admittedly the price increase for the silver eagles really only buys you aesthetic value (subjective), and numismatic value.  But I like the silver eagles just the same. 

I'm more likely to hoard silver eagles and spend privately minted rounds or bars.  There's a place for all three when I go to buy silver.

Of course, I'll HAPPILY trade a couple FRNs to someone who wants to rid themselves of sivler eagles, and I'll even pay face value for them. But with "generic" rounds or wedges (which I personally like better) there's no pretense or confusion that "the value I'm handing you comes from being useful, not from being government issued". FRN for FRN, I've personally found that generic rounds (for the sake of arguement wedges and rounds are both included in that term) tend to have a lower premium because they DON'T have numismatic value but if you're dealing with someone who cares ONLY for silver content, they're equal.

True.  Numismatics and aesthetics aside, it really doesn't matter.  Silver eagles might be a little more recognizable than lesser known rounds, and hence they might be more marketable across a broader spectrum of potential buyers.  And a forged silver eagle might be more obvious.  But for something like a community of porcs who want to trade in silver, I don't think this matters much.

At least for the purpose of trading for goods and services; for "investing" (hoarding?)

You do know that the "capital" part of capitalism comes from the building and saving of wealth, not so much the spending part of it, right? Just a playful jab, but it's that hoarding that actually does create value as a currency too. As a pure logic exercise, think about the spending habits of "typical" Americans who don't think about their currencies. FRNs ONLY have value when gotten rid of (unless they have historic value to a collector) and they LOOSE value as they're "hoarded". A hard currency gains value because "hoarding" can't be countered with reissuance (inflation). Hoarding is, very seriously, deflation. It RAISES demand for your currency and makes the piece you have that much more valuable.

What you say about hoarding is true: hoarding FRN's means you lose to inflation, while hoarding precious metals means (generally) you gain in value.  But I believe both lose out quite substantially to investing in stocks the long haul.  You can probably cherry pick a 10 or 20 year window in which precious metals out-performed stocks, but I'd wager one of these $1 silver eagles (  ) that stocks will typically win out long-term.

Gold in grams is a lot easier to find, since smaller amounts of gold are easy to handle and afford. Northwest Territorial Mint has 1, 5 and 10g gold wedges and I've seen them frequently enough in shops to know that other refineries and mints release them.

Yeah, I haven't really spent any time in a coin shop, and I was scared away from Northwest Territorial Mint because people on this board had some bad experiences with them.  I'm not overly fond of APMEX's payment/shipping structure either, but they're the best I've found so far.  If I had a good local coin shop, I'd probably be less concerned about APMEX.  But it would cost me as much in gas roundtrip to drive to a good coinshop as APMEX charges for shipping...and APMEX almost certainly has lower prices to boot.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

Though I don't think the fact that the silver eagles are minted by a government agency necessarily makes them worse than non-government-minted coins or rounds.

You're totally correct there. An ounce of silver is worth an ounce of silver, no matter who mints it. I was speaking to preference myself, not value. I like the wedges with corporate stamping rather than rounds with an eagle or whatever because I'm a capitalists and not an fan of birds. My preference doesn't change the value.

Silver eagles are, IMO, very attractive pieces.

I agree. I've seen some very attractive non eagles though. Again, totally speaking of subjective preference, I've got a wedge with an old German luger - that luger is more of a symbol of "liberty" to me than an eagle and the word "Liberty" on it.

Admittedly the price increase for the silver eagles really only buys you aesthetic value (subjective), and numismatic value.  But I like the silver eagles just the same.  Smiley

I'm more likely to hoard silver eagles and spend privately minted rounds or bars.  There's a place for all three when I go to buy silver.

There's nothing wrong with buying attractive pieces. In fact, I find it a bit odd when people don't recognize that as a valid thing. Silver, by far, is most commonly connected to jewelry and other decoration in many people's minds. It's been prized throughout history for LOOKING SHINY! There's value in that, for sure, but it may not be value that everyone's interested it. I've paid premiums for attractive looking pieces. I've also gotten a few pieces below spot because they were ugly. As long as you're understanding what you're purchasing, more power to you!

Silver eagles might be a little more recognizable than lesser known rounds, and hence they might be more marketable across a broader spectrum of potential buyers.

Very true, and that's something that can't be ignored no matter how you slice it. It can be useful as a transition to some people - kind of a hybrid. Government issued money that is silver. At the same time, I've met some people who (trying to rationalize the government face value being lower than the silver value) think silver eagles are worth more because of their numismatic value and NOT because of their content value. I suppose it's more important HOW the trades happen than the round or coin used, honestly. A person who shows a beautiful silver eagle and explains it's valuable because it's an ounce of silver has educated the person just as much as a guy who passes a generic round. Personally, I'm more concerned about how badly THAT guy flubs the trade to the next guy. Long term education is, IMO, one of the most powerful things about the silver exchange.

But I believe both lose out quite substantially to investing in stocks the long haul.

Different portfolios for different folks. The best portfolio is one that's managed astutely, no matter what's in it. Percentage return, you're probably right. There's kind of a bell curve there though. For me, I'm relatively with a certain level of disposable income and quite a bit of financial uncertainty. For me, a more stable but slower return is useful since it shows my wife hard numbers that silver is a viable "investment" which is how I rationalize tucking some of my income away in silver each paycheck. I'll wager that same silver eagle that no stocks are going to give my wife that level of comfort. Silver and gold don't really get much more valuable over time. Ownership in a company does, as that company produces more wealth. Investment in silver is betting on the chances of the Federal Reserve printing more money and I like them odds!

I haven't really spent any time in a coin shop

I live in the DC metro area. I've got 3 in my small town alone, with several dozen on my route to work. I'd seriously suggest anyone in THIS area do it. Coin collectors tend to be more liberty minded than most average folk - they've seen history unfold through those coins. They can in real terms understand how much governments have interfered with the economy, even if they aren't pro-liberty per se. Then you get folks like me who walk into a coin shop for the SOLE purpose of putting wealth in a form that the government can't meddle with. They're super secret liberty clubs.

At worst, you get a chance to see what's out there. Of course, hanging around with Free Staters all the time might totally invalidate BOTH of those benefits. Your mileage may vary. I'm a small time buyer since my finances have to be approved by my wife in a very loose sense. I can't drop several thousand dollars to get a good premium and it's a rare chance I can buy over a hundred dollars at a single shot. I did some checking and MOST of the mints online were anywhere between tepid to openly hostile towards small purchasers. Some require orders of 5K or more and the ones that do small orders were often more expensive than buying off of eBay from a seller with a good reputation (and in my experience, ebay almost never offers low premiums and has a high level of risk). In my case a coin shop (though my preferred one is more of a money changer than a coin shop) offered the best range of options, allowed for small purchases and had reasonable (but not great) premiums.

[margomaps]

Just an update in case someone finds this information useful:

My APMEX order arrived 3 days after the order was placed/processed.  Not bad.  Shipping and handling?  Outrageous.  Something like $16.95 for $200 worth of silver.  If you pay with personal check, there's a discount on shipping ($12-something), but you're supposed to send your check to them via priority mail, and they hold it for 10 days.

Anyway, the order itself came quickly, and was very well packaged.  The uncirculated silver eagles were stunningly beautiful, as always.  The generic rounds and bars varied from very fine to fair/good.  About half the coins were well tarnished, but there were no significant gouges or anything like that.

Does anyone know a good coin identification site?  A lot of the rounds aren't marked with much other than ".999 Fine", "One Troy Ounce", and maybe a picture or two.  I'm just curious what I have on hand.

[margomaps]

I know this thread was started with the idea of weekly silver purchases...so I hope the OP doesn't mind me using it for organizing what is likely to be my monthly purchases.

Anyway, I just want to extend the invitation to join me in my next buy which will be in July (toward the beginning of the month).  So if it seems like it might be about time for you to make a silver purchase, by all means send me a PM or reply on this thread.  The more the buyers, and the bigger the order, the more money we can save on shipping and on per-ounce price.

I'll try to post a few more reminders before I'm ready to place my order.

[LotharSNL]

Any news on Shire Silver?

[Ron Helwig]

Any news on Shire Silver?

I knew there was something I was supposed to be doing. 

Check Shire Silver .org in a few days.