The Omnivore's Delimma - Can't get it out of my head

[Jacobus]

I fail to see the immorality of slaughtering farm animals fed from your own crops and pastures.   

Living on a farm will quickly disabuse you of anthropomorphizing animals -- no matter how many Disney films you watch.   People are too far removed from the reality of food production.   

On a farm death is not sanitized.   You feel no post-modern remorse when plucking a chicken, only the hunger in your belly.

Where is the universal ethical impetus for vegetarianism?   (excluding reasons of individual health, religious belief, taste, etc.)

Ethical vegetarianism strikes me as another post-Catholic system to absolve imagined guilt.

I'm not being sarcastic but can you please explain to me what your trying to say in smaller, simpler terms because I don't understand most of your post.

Off-topic, but this reminded me of this exchange in Ghostbusters:

(Ray and Egon have several blueprints spread out over a table.)
Egon: The structure of this roof cap is exactly like the kind of telemetry tracker that NASA uses to identify dead pulsars in deep space.
Ray: Cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium.
Peter: (to everyone who's not a ghostbuster) Everyone getting this so far? So what? I guess they just don't make them like they used to.
Ray: (smacks Peter) No! Nobody ever made them like this! The architect was either a certified genius or an authentic wacko!
Peter: Ray, for a moment, pretend that I don't know anything about metallurgy, engineering or physics and just tell me what the hell is going on.

Well, it was funny in the movie anyway.

[JohninRI]

The way we eat is one of the things I think Americans have missed the boat on.  Americans eat while we are running from one event to another, or while we are doing something else like watching tv or typing on the computer.  We have little reverence for mealtime or for the food which nourishes us.  Contrast this with the Europeans who celebrate almost every meal and turn every day mealtime into social events.  I have always thought that these people know how to live.  Maybe it's because the Europeans are much older civilizations than ours but they seem to have a handle on what's important.  And I believe they live longer with much less stress.

[Raineyrocks]

I fail to see the immorality of slaughtering farm animals fed from your own crops and pastures.   

Living on a farm will quickly disabuse you of anthropomorphizing animals -- no matter how many Disney films you watch.   People are too far removed from the reality of food production.   

On a farm death is not sanitized.   You feel no post-modern remorse when plucking a chicken, only the hunger in your belly.

Where is the universal ethical impetus for vegetarianism?   (excluding reasons of individual health, religious belief, taste, etc.)

Ethical vegetarianism strikes me as another post-Catholic system to absolve imagined guilt.

I'm not being sarcastic but can you please explain to me what your trying to say in smaller, simpler terms because I don't understand most of your post.

Off-topic, but this reminded me of this exchange in Ghostbusters:

(Ray and Egon have several blueprints spread out over a table.)
Egon: The structure of this roof cap is exactly like the kind of telemetry tracker that NASA uses to identify dead pulsars in deep space.
Ray: Cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium.
Peter: (to everyone who's not a ghostbuster) Everyone getting this so far? So what? I guess they just don't make them like they used to.
Ray: (smacks Peter) No! Nobody ever made them like this! The architect was either a certified genius or an authentic wacko!
Peter: Ray, for a moment, pretend that I don't know anything about metallurgy, engineering or physics and just tell me what the hell is going on.

Well, it was funny in the movie anyway.

[MattLeft]

"Porkchops are good, bacon is good."...Vincent Vega, Pulp Fiction

[Raineyrocks]

People are too far removed from the reality of food production.

I agree! Has anyone here become involved with the food localization movement? Has anyone tried shopping at one of the many farmer's markets in NH? It's not as easy or necessarily as cheap as the local corporate supermarket, but shopping at one has rewards of its own.

Anyone belong to a CSA farm? This is a lot of fun, healthy, and a great way to meet and enjoy your neighbors. There are quite a few CSA farms in NH, and the sign-up season is happening right now.

About a year ago I started buying raw, grass-fed milk from a farmer in the next town. This young man and his wife keep a small herd of Jersey cattle and, wow, that breed makes the best milk! It is delicious and you can watch the whole process of milk production from start to finish. They are such nice people and good to the cows and the milk is delicious. I wouldn't drink any other kind!

Anybody heard of the "know your farmer" movement? Check it out:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1594/is_2_18/ai_n19313675

Wow, is the milk raw?  I read somewhere I think on Dr. Mercola's website that raw cow's milk is supposed to be really good for you.  I wish things could be like this:  The baby cow still gets the milk from his cow mother and then the leftover if there is any is sold to us.  Doesn't that sound nice?  I wonder if the farm your writing about does that?  I hate when I see a baby cow separated from his mother and he/she are fed some kind of formula for baby cows instead of the milk that nature made for the baby cow from his mother.

I went on a couple of field trips with the kids when they were younger and that's how I know about the baby cow info.  I saw a 4 hour old calf chained to a pole without his mother and just started asking questions.

[JohninRI]

A while ago I heard a theory that when we are born a great big pile of food is placed in front of us and we die when the pile is gone.

[Pat K]

"Porkchops are good, bacon is good."...Vincent Vega, Pulp Fiction

Porkchops with Bacon wrapped around them are perfect. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

"Porkchops are good, bacon is good."...Vincent Vega, Pulp Fiction

Porkchops with Bacon wrapped around them are perfect. 

You can glue the bacon onto the pork chops with cream cheese

[Raineyrocks]

Wow, is the milk raw?

Yes, absolutely! I wouldn't drink any other kind.

I read somewhere I think on Dr. Mercola's website that raw cow's milk is supposed to be really good for you.

I love Dr. Mercola's health information. He is great.

Want raw milk? Here's where to go in NH:

    *  Alstead: Flying Cloud Dairy, Bill and Ellen Jahos, 427 Hill rd. , Alstead , NH 03602, phone (603) 835-2519. Pasture based raw jersey milk and cream, minimal organic grain.

    * Amherst: The Nunley family. http://nhhoney.com Raw Jersey milk, cream, butter, buttermilk. Grass fed summer, hay fed winter. 54 Ponemah Rd., Amherst. (On Rte 122 across from Ponemah Greens Golf course.) Kevin and Kathie Nunley (603)249-9982.

    * Bedford: The Educational Farm at Joppa Hill, 174 Joppa Hill Road, Bedford, NH 03110. Carol Whitson, (603) 472-4724, info@theeducationalfarm.org , www.theeducationalfarm.org. Raw milk (cow and goat) from organic/biodynamic grass fed animals, grass fed beef, pastured pork and poultry, farm tours, summer farm camp, natural horsemanship lessons and training. Modified CSA farm.

    * Brookfield: Via Lactea Farm and Brookfield Dairy Goat Milk Products, Jenny and Andy Tapper 366 Stoneham Rd, Brookfield, NH 03872, www.vialacteafarm.com, info@vialacteafarm.com , (603) 522-3626. Raw Goat milk in returnable glass bottles available at on- farm store. Grade A licensed goat milk producer and on farm processing of raw (aged) and pasteurized (fresh) milk cheeses including farmhouse gouda, feta and chevre, plus goat milk yogurt and frozen yogurt. Also offering their own maple syrup, fresh eggs, chicken, goat, and pork. Farm store open Wednesday-Sunday, 9-6., March - December. Call or visit website for directions.

    * Canterbury: Hidden Wonders Farm, 305 Baptist Hill, Steve Allman, (603) 783-9648, wonder@totalnetnh.net . Organic raw milk from their two pasture-fed Jersey and Guernsey cows. Pasture fed pork, chicken and eggs, natural sea salt, Carlson's cod liver oil, azomite, Rapadura whole sugar, veggies in season and much more!

    * Chester: Kopacz Family Farm, 684 Fremont Rd., Michael Kopacz, (603) 887-2357. Jersey MIlk and other dairy products. Fresh Eggs

    * Epsom: McClary Hill Farm, 3 Griffin Road, Epsom, NH, 03234, Dave and Barb Stewart, (603) 738-4717. barbaraghstewart@gmail.com , www.mcclaryhillfarm.com. Jersey cows, grass-fed, organically-raised (although not USDA certified).

    * Exeter: Brookford Farm Distribution Point, 9 Newfields Road, Luke Mahoney, (603) 742-4084, lukemahoney@gmx.de , www.brookfordfarm.com. This is a distribution point for a certified organic pasture based raw milk, raw cream and eggs. They meet at the above address from 2PM to 4PM every thursday. If the location is good but the time and/or the day doesn't work please contact them and they will work with you.

    * Hampton Falls: Jesta Farm, 190 Drinkwater Road, Sue Veilleux, (603) 772-6963, JestaFarm@aol.com . Nubian Dairy Goats, raw milk, fresh eggs, milk raised pork, Nubian breeding stock, semen, goat milk soap.

    * Keene: Stonewall Farm, www.stonewallfarm.org. Raw milk from Holsteins. Awarded Dairy of Distinction citation by the State of New Hampshire.

    * Piermont: Robie Farm, 25 rt.10 Piermont N.H. 03779. (603) 272-4872. Owners: Lee and Betty Sue Robie. Family farm with a natural, (working our way to organic) mixed herd of holstiens and jerseys. Farm Store including: Raw Milk, Free Range Chicken Eggs, Pork Sausage, Beef, Baked Goods and Raw Milk Farmstead Cheese. Open Year round.

    * Monroe: Maple Hill Farm Rt 135, Monroe, NH 03771. Phone:(603) 638-2647, MAPLEHILLFLOWERS@adelphia.net . The Morrison Family. A former NH Dairy of Distinction, they are a small family run Certified Organic Dairy Farm, milking Jerseys and Holsteins who are let out to pasture each day. Farmstand and greenhouse open with seasonal organic vegetables, bedding plants, herbs and perennials. Pasture raised pheasant and certified organic milk. Also available: farm tours, pick your own pumpkins and gourds, programs for school groups and classes given by local craftspeople. Please call or email for details.

    * Nottingham: Jenness Farm, LLC, 77 Garland Road, Nottingham, NH 03290, Lori & Peter Corriveau, (603) 942-8051, lori@jennessfarm.com , www.jennessfarm.com. Raw goat milk, hand-crafted soaps and body care. They also offer breeding stock of goats.

    * Rochester: Full Moon Farm, Terri French/Bill Melville, 173 Estes Rd, Rochester, NH 03867. Phone: (603) 332-7440. Goat milk, cheese, and soap.

    * Rollinsford: Brookford Farm, 70 Sligo Road, Luke Mahoney, (603) 742-4084, lukemahoney@gmx.de . Raw jersey milk, year round, grass based, minimal grain, USDA certified organic. Cream and lowfat milk also available.

    * Salisbury (near Andover/Franklin): Zac and Marianne, 406 Raccoon Hill Rd, Salisbury, NH 03268. (603) 648-2510. Raw milk from a shorthorn that is hayed in the winter, pastured in other times. Yogurt, and some cheese also available.

    * Sanbornton: Swain Dairy Farm, 249 Hunkins Pond Road. Owners are David and Elaine Swain, 603-524-3419. Self service store selling raw milk, fresh hamburg, eggs and maple syrup.

    * Swanzey: Cornerstone Farm, Glen Hurd, 197 Forest Ave., Swanzey, NH 03446 (603)357-4361, Fax: (603) 352-2508, i_luv_swiss@hotmail.com . They milk Brown Swiss cows, sell raw milk, cream, veal, pork, and beef. Their excess milk is fed to humanely raised veal calves and pigs. They feed their cows feed that is produced using organic principles and treat them using homeopathic remedies.

    * Wilton: Temple Wilton Community Farm, (603) 654-6082 . Contact: Lincoln Geiger and Dan Zabara. See Website at www.templewiltoncommunityfarm.com. Fresh unpasturized whole milk from seasonally pastured cows. Delicious raw yogurt, cheeses.

    * Winchester: Country Critters Farm, countrycritterfarm@earthlink.net . Raw cow & goat milk available by reservation. Raw goats milk "off season" and seasonally pastured poultry, which includes chicken, turkey & eggs, medicinal & culinary herbs and homemade herbal salves & lip balms. Seasonal vegetables grown using organic principles & practices. USDA Inspec. naturally raised lamb, chevron meat cuts available offered at the farm year round retail area. Cheese making classes offered year round, locally, at your home with a focus on "quick & easy cheeses" made with your raw milk.

Wow thanks for listing all of the places!

[John Edward Mercier]

Security from predators. And hormones and antibiotics are about production. Each generation the dairy farmers and cattlemen choose what animals to mate for genetics that will increase production (milk or meat). They realized sillage/grain would only increase production so much (both are higher in nutrients than grass)... the hormones increase the production/growth (would do the same if grass fed, but only to the extent of available nutrient). And the antibiotics are used to overcome disease spread by confinement.
If your wondering many animals die in infancy in the wild from predation and such... but very few bovine do.

We do the same in our gardens... choosing seeds from plants that have genetic traits we want. And providing extra nutrients to stimulate growth, while protecting them from natural predators.

You want to see cruelty... watch a deer or bear chased by hounds... or a calf being raised for veal.

No offense, but I'm starting to see discussing this topic with you as a waste of my time.

Imagine we decided to start eating koala. You could say, "Wow, this Eucalyptus leaf diet is really slow to bulk up this koala. I think I'll feed him high powered olive oil, try to fatten him up in half the time."  But there's one problem: The koala doesn't eat anything but eucalyptus leaves because he has been selected to eat this diet. You could try all sorts of fancy chemicals to help him digest your new olive oil diet, but you would also be eating those chemicals too, because what is in his body is in yours once you eat him. If he gets sick and diseased, you suffer from that too. You have WAY too much faith n this human process of selecting animals that do better under the horrible conditions. That doesn't mean they are ok. The cow is still very much a ruminant. It eats grass. And nothing humans have done has changed that. Close your eyes if you want to. Yes, there is other cruelty in other places. This is only one part of it. But no, it's not ok. And we can't make it ok without changing how we approach things. You don't want to do that, so you tell yourself it's ok.

I don't like seeing the environment as a religion... and the outcome of the system was free market.
Nothing is 'selected' to eat a diet. They evolve to do so. Humans have options for food choices... bison are grass fed as they will not eat sillage/grain. They have not been anthropogenically altered... well at least not yet.

[flaherty]

humans are the only species on the planet that consume another species milk. what's natural about that? shit's sick. coming from a long time vegan i suppose my opinion is a bit swayed.

concerning the omnivore's delimma though, i have complete respect for Pollan considering he actually killed that chicken in order to eat it.

[Caleb]

I don't like seeing the environment as a religion... and the outcome of the system was free market.
Nothing is 'selected' to eat a diet. They evolve to do so. Humans have options for food choices... bison are grass fed as they will not eat sillage/grain. They have not been anthropogenically altered... well at least not yet.

I don't like seeing the free market as a religion. The free market is just interactions between people. Some of these interactions are good, some are bad. The products of the "free market" are not magically wonderful just because of the beneficience that the process bestows upon them. As far as that goes, a healthy respect and love for the natural is probably just about the most benign religion imaginable.

[Kat Kanning]

I read an article by a couple of anthropologists several years ago which said that the adoption of agriculture was the biggest mistake ever made.

They said that Humans were adapted to being hunter/gatherers, and that the widespread adoption of agriculture was supremely unhealthy--both the difference in nutrition, the back-breaking labor required to get enough caloric-content from agricultural products, and the fact that it tied people down to one piece of land.   It caused the establishment of cities, which caused problems with sanitation, and due to the now weakened immune systems (weakened by the hard labor and poor nutrition) humans became prone to epidemics and shortened lifespans.

Additionally, agriculture was responsible for the invention of government.  With the loss of defensive skills that hunters had, as well as the loss of strength caused by the change from a high-protein to a high starch diet, and the change from a nomadic lifestyle to one tied to a particular location, people were an easy target for groups of bandits to raid them and take all their stuff (and engage in a little rape, pillage, and burn).  Eventually, a group of bandits would find it easier to sell the locals on a protection scheme whereby if they followed the orders of the bandits, and paid them off, the bandits would protect them from other bandits.

It is illuminating when you remember that hunting, and largely the eating of meat, was reserved for the ruling class pretty soon after the rise of a ruling class. 

Just something to think about.

I this subject interests you, you might enjoy the book The Alphabet vs The Goddess which touches on similar issues.

[Kat Kanning]

I think cow's milk (whether raw or otherwise) is the worst thing you can consume short of poison.  Read The China Study.  Milk = cancer, =osteoporosis, =heart disease

[Raineyrocks]

I think cow's milk (whether raw or otherwise) is the worst thing you can consume short of poison.  Read The China Study.  Milk = cancer, =osteoporosis, =heart disease

Wow, I've never heard that about raw cow's milk.  Should I just type in The China Study raw milk into google or do you have a good link?  I'd like to know all I can before I waste time and money on something that may not be good.  Thanks Kat!

I've just started buying milk again for the kids the past few months because they were letting all of the rice milk go to waste and they hate almond & soy milk.  They used to use the rice milk when they were little but now  I think they see that I'm giving in to stuff way more because I have a lot of personal issues with my health and depression so they are taking advantage while I'm occupied with myself instead of them as much.   It makes me feel like a crappy mother too and I need to gain some more ground here at home no matter what is going on with me.

I just had another one of my kids move out 2 weeks after she turned 18 right smack into the scummy drug place my son moved in to before he came back home.  It really threw me for a shocker because we were so close and I never expected it so it seems like I went wrong somewhere with whatever I've taught them.  I'm trying not to think about her that much because my health is really in the pits right now and I can't deal with much more.

Sorry I know this was about milk and as usual I ran off topic.